Historical Commission - August 5, 2026

This meeting of the Westport Historical Commission is now in session.

Uh members present uh all voting um Mark Thompson Katrina Strozik War Deborah Choli Garrett Stuck William Kendall and Timothy Bryant.

Uh first order of business is the meeting minutes of the meetings of June 24th, July 1st, and July 23rd.

Uh two of those were special meetings.

Um and I've got um I don't didn't pass these around, but ba basically those those were meetings where we went into executive session. And so this this is just paragraph reporting who was present at the meeting, um why we were going into executive minutes of the executive exe executive session itself are separate and we'll consider those in executive session if we haven't already. Um so if you just

want to have a a quick look like I said it's it's it's just um list of who is present.

Okay. And then you've all received the minutes of um meeting of July 1st. And I brought some extra copies with with my comments. I'll just tell you briefly what my comments are. Uh some of them are just u typos. I won't go over those.

Um [clears throat] paragraph 3A.

Uh let's see. Third sentence. uh chw determined that although the structure and here's a change although the structure was attached to a historical barn at one time it is not a historically significant building can you add this change uh yes and uh Deborah had a change to um paragraph 2D uh beginning of this second page it says will be a different brand. Um, it's actually the same brand. It's also a

color. [clears throat] Okay.

Um, item number five under general business.

Um, there's a sentence about midway through that paragraph. GS said that the granite cladding on the new foundation at 2040 Main Road the sentence ends um and so it should say looked very authentic.

Okay. Um under B topics not reasonably anticipated.

Number one just really a typo typo um a word change.

Uh, and then the last sentence of of number one, um, talking about Mark Thompson, his appointment will be approved by the select board. Change that to his appointment is expected to be approved by the select board.

Any comments on the minutes? Any other corrections changes?

I don't have any others.

I don't have any. Okay, I think we could um I move to approve the minutes from the June 24th meeting or is it July? July one.

I think we could do them all if you do them all at the same time.

Yep.

Okay. You want to um to approve the minutes of meetings June 24, July 1, and July 24 23 as amended.

As amended.

And you're you're okay doing that for the executive session?

Well, these are not for session is just who's attended.

Okay. So we'll approve those separately.

Open meeting part.

Okay.

Of the executive session.

Okay.

Can I have a second?

Yes. Is there a second?

I second.

Okay. Uh all in favor?

I I All opposed. The motion passes.

Okay. Next item is treasures report and there is no treasures report this month.

Uh so we move on to applications for certificate of appropriateness. First one is 46 K Bio Lane, Henry FR, new garage.

Should I come up?

You can come up. But can I just make a point about who's on the commission and because some of us are on the commission and near the property and there was a question before our meeting began whether we're allowed to vote on this.

And I just want to read this into the record that we are allowed to vote because we do not have a conflict of interest. Both Katrina and I live near Henry, but we neither of us abut his property.

I I abut him. You you abut.

Yes.

Okay. Then you have to recuse.

I recuse.

All right. But um I do not abut Henry's property. So I can still vote. So you have to recuse. Anyone else uh does none of the others are but that's the only condition. You have to above the property. Okay.

So since you are in a butter, you can't vote. But I can because I'm not in a butter and it's not a conflict of interest, I can remain impartial. So all good. Thank you.

Okay. Do you guys all have acted?

I think we we all received it. Yeah.

Very simple project. Henry has wanted to have Yeah. Can would you mind just stating your name for the the record?

My name is Timothy Gillespie. I represent Homeworks Incorporated, which is actually run by my son now, who is the applicant, but he's in Canada, so I'm sitting in for him. Um, yes. And Homeworks is a Westport company, been around for a long time.

And this application is for a onecar garage that Henry Fish has wanted for a very long time.

And because it is in close proximity to wetlands, it went through the conservation commission and he filed a notice of intent and they received a uh an order of conditions and they said it was okay for him to build this garage.

So the next step is to get us stamp from you guys if possible.

But it's a really simple building. It's just one car and a little shop on the end. And it's white cedar shingles on the outside, white trim in keeping with the house that's there and other houses in the vicinity.

The windows are divided light.

There are two doors with nine light sashes on them and it would would be an overhead door facing Cape Bane.

Do you have um I don't see a drawing of the overhead door.

Uh I may have I see an open here. It's an opening. It's not The door isn't closed when it's open.

It's It would be a door with some lights across the top. Fairly traditional standard overhead door.

And which end of the building do you see from That's the one that faces Here's the driveway.

Here's where the garage door is.

And it would be tucked into this these bushes here.

Presumably, if you didn't have any of these bushes, you'd see the side of the building. I don't know if you could even see the door.

The side or I think you'd see you'd have to you pull into the garage from Yeah, because it is offset. If you look at the page with photographs of the site, it's going to be it's not going to be real visible from the road. The other this one this one here.

Yeah, this is from

questions or comments from the commission.

What kind of car What kind of car can fit in there? It's very small.

It's a standard garage. I mean, it's going to have a 9 ft wide opening and it has a small window through it.

That's good.

What could you match that this way?

Basic.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's good.

I think it's I think it's right.

Okay. So, this requires a public hearing. So, I uh hereby open the public hearing. Are there any comments from the public about the uh Can I participate as an abuter?

I think you're recused. I mean, you can ask questions just like a member of the public.

Yeah, that's what I'm asking. If I can participate as a public person.

As a member of the public. Yes.

Yes.

Katrina. Um, just curious.

Hi. Just curious. So, um, Mr. Fish's home was built in 1938. And one of the details on the building is an octagonal window on the top of the garage.

Yeah.

And um can you just say a little bit more about that choice as opposed to something a little bit more traditional?

It's facing away from the road so you won't be able to see it.

Oh, that's on the house.

It's on the house side. It's on south side.

Okay.

I don't think I put one on the other side. Yeah, just on the one elevation.

Yeah, it's just on the south side.

That's where it is, right?

South elevation.

Any other comments or questions from the public?

Okay. So, um the uh public hearing is closed and I'll move on to any discussion from the the commission.

I walk down that street all the time and I think this fits in very nicely with the house that's existing.

I do as well and I think it's very nice with the house that existing and uh I I think we need to make an annotation about the style of the garage door since it's not represented here.

Oh, I can well it isn't it isn't dimensioned there. is dimension of the it's it's open and it seems to be open open in every door in every drawing.

If you look on the floor plan sheet A4, there's a width measurement of 9 ft.

Mhm.

And if you look on drawing A3, there's a height measurement. It's basically going to be a 7 foot tall door, which is a standard garage door.

But what's the style?

[clears throat and cough] It would it would be it probably would be flat panel with glass across the top or raised panel. I don't know. I hadn't discussed it with Henry.

It It's likely to be what? Four four pan four horizontal divisions and the top panel has got, you know, divided lights and you might have four of those across the four window sections across the top.

Yeah. I would probably have five or six glass panels across the top.

Yeah, if you want, I can I can draw something up and put it in and consult with Henry, make sure it's what he wants. Didn't even think of it.

Yeah, I I think that that's an important detail because that that's what's going to All right.

face the road.

I can do that.

I will send it to the commission by PDF.

Well, can you can you make a quick sketch for us? Um, absolutely. Great.

You know, so so we have a ballpark and and sketch it on this step.

Okay.

And then the the final would have to be approved by the monitors.

And then the question is the trim trim detailing and the rake boarding is that match the house. Is that Yeah. flat 1x6 corner boards and Yeah. Yeah.

basic fasia and it'll have gutters. I'm sure.

Oh, we will. Okay.

Um, may I suggest that uh in relation to the garage door, you're very likely given the choices we have to be able to to select that. Um, and so there's the graphics that are representative of the company that you're using. Uh, it's much more expensive to do a custom door of that sort and they are repres.

This won't be a custom door. It'll be a standard door. So if you just sent the selection from catalog that would that would be the simplest.

All right. Don't need the sketch.

I think we need a sketch so so we know so we have an approximation of of of what you're planning.

Um do you want me to draw over this perspective?

No, I think you can draw a free freestanding freestanding what the door is going to look like.

Note the materials.

It's just procedure.

Is there a chance you want to get closer to the microphone so that we can talk and hear you? There's so many of us echo.

Okay.

You could talk into the microphone.

You want me to talk into the microphone better?

You can.

Um, my brother would not approve of this drawing.

Roughly, Tim, would that have the Would this be divided up with panels or is it just flat?

Did it have panels below?

Right.

They're they're panels that I mean, they're just straight.

Yeah.

Okay. Well, the kind of door that has been approved in the district in the past has had not raised panels, but sunken panels or raised panels.

Okay. Yeah, we can do that. That's easy.

If you And could you draw that on there?

Really stretching my abilities here.

That that matches the the doors that are in the district, right? Yeah.

I think you could just indicate race panels.

Yeah, you don't have to draw them. Just say just call it out.

or a sunken panel.

And then as Mark was suggesting, if you give us a cut sheet to go with this monitor, I'll consult with Henry and and see what he wants to do.

Okay. And you can send that to us and then the monitors have a guideline when they monitor the project.

Sure.

Okay.

Y it's likely that those are just online so process. I will sign some monitors.

Well, we haven't voted yet.

Um Okay. So, um so we have uh the proposal um amended with a sketch of a of a garage door. Proposed garage door.

Do I hear a motion?

Motion to approve.

Is there a second?

I second it.

Okay, let's do a roll call vote.

Mark Thompson approves. Ward Mooney approves.

Deborah Chi I Stuck I. William Kendall I.

Timothy Bryan I.

Okay. Your certificate is approved.

Thank you.

So we have to assign monitors.

Monitors.

I'll be a monitor.

Okay. I'll be a monitor, too.

Me, too. Okay. Me and Garrett are your monitors.

So, you guys are monitors. All right.

And so, you let us know. Um, well, first first you're going to communicate with us about the actual door that you're putting in.

Yeah.

Um, send me a cut here. And Lean has worked with you guys.

So he'll he'll notify you when things are rolling.

Yeah. And then Right. And then you you let us know when you start. Um let us know when you finish. Let us know if there are any changes.

Sign.

Why don't you just initial initial?

Oh, you did. Okay. Great.

Okay. Good. Got you.

My official signage.

I need another commissioner here.

Okay, you done with me?

We are done with you. Thank you, sir.

Katrina, welcome back.

Thank you very much.

Good to have you back.

I'll take those, but I can I'll take I'd like the uh signed one for file.

[clears throat] Yeah, I think this Okay. Uh, next item. 1913 Drift Road Russell Baker outdoor shower.

Is Russell Baker here?

I think I think we are not allowed to consider he's he's not yet to represent [clears throat] or anybody to represent him.

Yeah.

So should we continue it and reach out to him for I don't think we can.

I think he has to reapply, right?

Because he would have to agree to the continuence.

I don't know. Um I don't know if he has to do a whole new application.

Yes, he does.

We can delay try delay. Does anybody want to Yeah, call him? Text him.

Okay, we'll come back to that.

[clears throat] Okay, next item. 2015 Main Road ANC realy trust construct pool complex in Pergola continued from July 3rd hearing uh and it was originally uh this application was originally presented at the February 5, 2026 hearing and it's been continued every month since then. Um so we have uh Sean Leech presenting on behalf of the owner

Good evening, Chair Struck and fellow members of the commission. I just had a few words before Mr. Leech starts his presentation. My name is Kelly Jordan Price. I'm attorney at the law firm of Hankley Allen in Boston. I'm here tonight representing Robert Bronca, trustee of the ANC realy trust who's the applicant in this matter. I want to thank everyone for the opportunity to appear before you this evening. I would

like to take a few moments to provide the commission with some background on how we arrived at this point before turning it over to Mr. Leech. Back in the spring of 2023, Mr. Brona undertook a project to construct an inground pool and spa with a surrounding concrete retaining wall on his property. He engaged licensed engineers and other qualified professionals to design the project and to obtain the necessary

permits. His professionals applied for and obtained two separate building permits from the Westport building commissioner, one for the pool and spa and a second for the retaining wall.

Construction then commenced. We understand that as part of the permitting process, the building commissioner's office conferred with a representative of the historical commission regarding whether an additional approval was required from the commission before issuing the permits. In November of 2023 and during the course of construction, questions arose as to whether the project also required a certificate of

appropriateness from this commission. I mention this only as background for newer members of the commission. The town's bylaw provides for certain structures, including walls as well as swimming pools that are not subject to view from a public way as being outside the commission's jurisdiction. Mr.

Brona, having obtained proper building permits and relying on his licensed professionals, had no reason to believe that anything was being done improperly.

That said, we're not here this evening to relitigate jurisdictional issues.

We're here to move forward in good faith. While Mr. Mr. Brona has maintained his position that no certificate is required. In December 2023, he nevertheless appeared before this commission and filed applications for both a certificate of non-applicability and a certificate of appropriateness. When those applications were denied, Mr. Bronca exercised his right to appeal those decisions to

Bristol Superior Court. The town also initiated a separate enforcement action and four neighboring property owners intervened in those litigations, which have all been consolidated. The litigations remain pending. What I would like to emphasize this evening, however, is not the history of the litigation, but rather the spirit of cooperation and good faith that has brought us here

tonight. While reserving all rights with respect to the pending court proceedings, Mr. Bronco voluntarily filed an application with this commission for a certificate for a revised plan. More importantly, over the course of the past month, um, in actually in the the recent months, um, but most notably in the last several weeks, Mr. Brona and the interveners, the neighbors who had raised concerns

about the project, sat down together and worked collaboratively to agree upon the elements of a revised plan. That collaborative effort resulted in a settlement agreement between Mr. Bronca and the interveners, as well as a separate procedural agreement among Mr.

Brona, the interveners in the town to stay those pending litigations while this application proceeds. These agreements reflect a shared commitment to work towards resolving this matter constructively and to present the commission with a revised plan that we believe addresses the all of the concerns that have been raised. We are grateful for the willingness of the intervenors in the town to work with Mr.

Brona towards a resolution and we are very hopeful that the commission will find the revised plan that Mr. Leech is about to present to be appropriate and will approve the project as presented this evening which will allow all of the parties Mr. Brona the interveners and the town to move forward without the time expense and uncertainty of prolonged litigation. So again we thank

you very much for your time this evening and at this point and unless any of the commission members has any questions I will turn it over to Mr. the speech.

I would like to just say one thing. I wish you had started your speech with the very last page where you said you're grateful that you want to meet with us and come to a resolution. I personally do not appreciate the revisiting history that you just recited. There are many things that you said that I could take exception to, but I'm not going to go there because we are also in a spirit of

cooperation tonight. We would like to resolve this. So, it's unfortunate that you set the tone the way you did, but that is what it is. we'd like to move forward with this project and we look forward to the presentation by Sean.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you. Um, [clears throat] by the way, I should mention that uh there was one one member who was not present at that original February 5th meeting. That's Katrina Stroszi.

Katrina, would you confirm that you watched the video of that?

I did.

Okay. So, you are eligible to vote.

Okay.

Go back. Sure.

Okay. So, I think we're all familiar with the site and what what's going on there. And this is the site plan, the new site plan with some uh differences that I'll point out right now. Uh currently, as we all know, the onele wall here that surrounds this whole footprint of to the west of the house. What's going to happen now? The major changes are these. This section here, which is I'll call the pool

section for lack of better term, is going to be cut down basically about 4 ft. So, they're going to stall cut right at this point here. This is an equipment room where the equipment for the pool and the spa will be. It'll be covered up. So, it's a it's a benefit to have it so there's no noise or concern to neighbors. It's going to wrap around and the other saw cut down to elevation 12

1/2 which is about a 4ft cut will happen right here where these steps go up the upper patio. The upper patio is going to be at elevation 17 which is about a foot and a half lower than the threshold of the existing house and is currently at that elevation right now and was previously at the same elevation where the former setting system was. Uh previously we had a spa in this area.

The spa is being moved up against the house as far east as we can get it. So, it's hidden in here uh where before it was out in this area here, which is the lower patio. The second major thing is we've eliminated pergola that was over on the south side of what I'll call the upper patio. And the countertop being the countertop the cooktop whatever you want to refer it to is being moved from

here up against the house on this side.

So it's cut inside the elm of the house.

So those are the the major changes.

Again four 4ft cut here. Uh this is staying the same. The steps going up to this upper patio but from this point on it's all being lowered 4 ft.

Sean, I just want to offer this to you.

This is the picture that you and I exchanged. Okay. The line drawing that you did here that we can look at.

I think that's this was very helpful.

Thank you.

So, the second plan I'll show you basically is just the lighting plan. And the lighting plan now is very minimal.

It's going to be lights in the pool. We have submitted the full plans with lighting. No overhead lighting, but just basically step lights for safety. Going along here, what they call eyelid lights that shine down on the steps just so that in the evening or at night we climb the steps safely. But I'm think same thing over here with the Before we had a pergola that had overhead lights. That's all been more

lights and then just typical lighting around the house itself. Nothing changes on the house itself.

Go back to this. So the site plan, there's two views I'm going to show you.

One is the profile from this way and one is a profile from the water looking up.

I think one of the concerns is the view from the river. So I want to highlight those.

So, here's the profile looking I'll call from the Hardy property down across to the house and to the existing patio and where we're proposing to put the pool. What you see here basically is the elevation of the house, the rear part of the house. This is the upper patio here. We have a horizontal cable uh railing 36 in high just for safety because it drops down basically from 17 elevation 12

where the pool area will be the pool area. This line you see here with the vertical will be the pool fence required 48 in pool fence by Massachusetts code.

The pool itself will be down here. Now there's a very light gray line you see here which is the [clears throat] elevation of the existing parking line wall. At the beginning of this most of the pool will be hidden but as the topography drops off and the pool stays level there will be in this area here a little visual of the pool wall that will be remaining but it won't be as

dramatic. before we were up here and it was it was very dramatic. This can be hidden and the plan is according to site plan is to do landscape. So I have a picture here that shows where the wall is now where the wall will be. It'll be slightly lower than that property line wall on that side.

[clears throat] I also have a picture of the greenhouse is going to be removed. is going to be and I think three basically going to be a membrane roof over the greenhouse as part of the upper deck and there'll be a walk out over there that will be hidden off by already existing properties. You won't see that. And the deck this is a rendering as of what the deck basically

is going to kind of look like underneath the elevation of the house.

So view from the water. So looking back at the water, we're looking at the elevations here. This is what's going to happen.

Current elevation of the patio area 17- line. The railing will be at elevation about 20.

The railing for the pool basically is going to be 16 and 1/2, but the pool itself be 12 1/2. It'll be almost invisible behind between a wheel stone facade and landscaping. So it'll be very low up here. It'll be about a foot and a half a wall showing over towards the south. It's more like 3 ft, but there's a proing line wall. Again, the top of the wall is elevation 127. The pool elevation is 125.

Sean, excuse me. Can you enlarge your image?

Absolutely.

Mr. Chair with me. It's hard for us to see anything.

Yeah. On the left side of this.

Do you want to share these plans and the room? These are the same things that he's show.

Is this is this better or Yes.

That is better. Yeah. Can we If you stand on the other side of this room, here we go. So again, the elevation uh in top pool 12 elevation existing wall at the pool was 127. In the property line wall, there is a 4 foot requirement for a vertical slat fence around a pool as was required by building codes. The elevation, this dash line you see here of the patio is 17. It's a foot and a

half lower. It's the same elevation of the septic system that used to be there.

It does have a 3ft railing because now there's a 4ft drop between the upper patio and the pool area. And there will be steps coming down. The steps that come up the side will be stone.

These wall be landscaped and a stone wall. This door exists. It already exists and it shows just like that.

There's nothing new. The equipment room which is slightly lower uh than the patio will remain and be screen.

Sorry. Which wall exists?

Uh this door.

Oh, this walk out RV. So what's surrounding the um septic system right now or was you have any existing condition system you see this mount here?

Yeah.

Well, I'm just curious why the pool the the um the deck outside the house is so tall. Is that all new? Uh it would appear to me that you have a very tall wall for the patio area. Why is it at that elevation and not that high? It's already existing grade of 17.

And and how does that grade end? Is it this big retainable?

I can show how do you have a section for that?

I have I have a existing condition.

But if if you've got that elevation and then it goes off, you've got to put a retaining wall in there to stop it from doing that. Right.

Right. That's what we're doing.

Basically, we're cutting the toll of that slope off and putting the retaining wall.

Yeah. But so that's a new wall that's holding up the top area of the patio. I mean, I'm not sure if everyone understands that, but that let me uh go to I know after that plan and I explain what I what you do you have pictures of that computer. Okay, we'd like to see those.

So, so anyway, sorry. Uh this is what the profile will look. We purposely uh let me scroll down.

Uh I painted a mark a white mark. I don't know if you can see that it kind of disappeared with all the rain we had unfortunately but basically where the cut was for the elevation of the walls 12 in relation to what's there now. You can see the difference of magnitude between existing wall and where it's going to be. That's four feet of being cut off.

Yeah.

Could you could you put your finger through it so we can see? Go back up there.

So we can see it better. You said there's a line. Show us the line.

Show us.

Sorry.

I'm not sure which line.

The white. You talking about the white mark that he made?

Betty, you can have this, Betty. It's the same.

I have a better picture.

Do you see the dark line going across there? Yes.

Yeah, that's pretty much it's a little bit lower than that.

Yeah.

And it's the yellow line in the in the elevation.

So maybe this is a little easier with this picture here. I'm sorry. So you know showing basically the same elevation obviously not identical but showing where equipment area room.

Yeah.

uh the approximate wall location. And this is kind of hard because perspective is not exactly 90° wall. We'll show where the new wall where the wall will be cut at elevation 12.5 where the patio, this yellow line you see here, which is going to be elevation 17.

That's where the patio will be up against the house within the L of the area.

Sean, can can you help me understand where the cut is? Right. So, when you say the wall is 12 1/2 ft tall, it's 12. It's elevation 12 1/2.

So, right now, the elevation at the top of the wall is 16.4. Okay.

You're cutting at 3.9 ft.

Okay. So, if I'm standing next to the wall, how tall is the wall?

8 ft.

Okay.

In this first area, before or after the cut?

Before. Okay. So, I'm gonna go I'm gonna stand against the wall. It's because I don't have access, right? So, I'm gonna go over to the wall. Stand there. It's 8 feet tall. You're going to cut it four feet. So, now the wall is 4T tall at that at the worst section, which is that south uh southwest corner of the pool area. So, the grade, as you can see here, the grade picks up as you come

across here. Yeah. Um I think the answer back before in that the height of the walls that yellow line it showed is that elevation um something 16 16.4 actually and and and the 3ft stone wall on the other side of their driveway. You want to point that out right there? See it is about one or two inches higher than than what it will be to give you a little perspective.

Okay. So, let me just ask if if you if you have a comment, please, you know, I raised my hand.

Yeah, please raise your hand and um give us your name.

For the record, David.

David, what is the base?

Can you say your name, please? David.

David, what is the base from which the elevations are measured?

It's uh Okay, so it's a North American vertical data of 1988. That sounds fancy, but basically uh to give you a reference point, mean high water in that datam is 1.7.

So this is at elevation 12 1/2. So you're about 11 ft higher than mean high water. I don't know if that's uh it's it's a datam that is used for engineering purposes.

Uh so it it's a relative. I mean we use that for everything cuz it's a place on planet earth that we can all measure from.

But it it doesn't give us any sense of absolute height but just a relative of height of the different structures. Is that right?

Okay. So it's elevation 12 right currently. Right now where it was excavated down at the southwest corner is elevation 8 and 1/2.

Yeah. up here towards the doorway is elevation 10 and a half.

So there's like a twoft gradient going up. So So it'll be like I said 2 feet here and 4 ft there.

An existing grade. The plan is to grade it off. So this is level and it hides more of the wall, but currently that's what it is.

So Sean, if the wall is 4T tall, if I'm standing next to it and it's 4t tall.

Yeah.

How deep is the pool?

Well, I'm not sure how deep the pool is going to be. One of the problems we have and the challenges of what we're doing here, cutting it down and what we're expecting down near the water, there's hunks of very obvious ledge outcrops on this particular site, which are elevation 6 and 1/2.

The hope is that the ledge is getting lower so that we can dig at least a sixft pool. And if you can't, that's something we we're going to have to decide at that point what's going to happen because the whole point that why it was raised was the concern is and the test of 76 the ledge is very prevalent in this area which is probably why no one ever built much here.

Yeah. Uh so it's going to be a difficult thing to say is it 6 ft down doing a test kit there or is it 8 ft down? You know, you hope it's 10 ft down and it goes away. We don't know that right now.

So when was the decision to raise it made?

I think it was from the beginning it was at that elevation.

So it's not technically So it's not technically an ingground pool.

You depend where you call an ingground pool. Yeah.

Well, an above ground pool is in a retaining wall, right? That's not ing ground. If the intent was to avoid that ledge rock, just curious.

So, are you going to try to dig down before you cut the wall or are you going to cut the wall and hope that you can dig down?

Seems we're going to cut the wall first and hope hope we dig. We It may it may come down to a very shallow pool.

Jeff, that that was a point. I I think the point I was going to ask um is what you're setting is the top of that pool and terrace down there and that's set, right, Sean? Yeah.

And and depending on how far they can dig is how far the pool is going to be.

So, so I think as far as [clears throat] you're concerned, you know, the height of this terrace and the stone wall that's going around it and and that's not changing, I believe. Um, it's just the depth of the pool, which who cares?

You know, let them let them have a two foot pool, let them have a 4 foot pool, whatever they can get, they'll get. So, as long as you keep the terrace there and that's what you're concerned with because that's what you see, right?

I believe so. Okay. I I understand what you're trying to say. It's it's kind of a half doesn't. Uh we don't know what we're going to encounter or whether we encounter over the whole section of the pool part of the pool. It's hard to really say, but definitely the ledge down at the water is at 6 and 12.

So if you decided to raise it before and you did no test pits to find out where any of the ledge was below it, it was an assumption. So you didn't dig down to check.

We have not dug down.

Interesting. What? Why? Why not? I'm just curious. Well, obviously because when we had the pool at 16 and a half, you didn't need to, right?

But so you made that decision. But so you you did make any exploration prior to doing that?

No, I didn't.

Okay. So can you can you excavate now and find out?

Uh we probably go down to the wall, but right now it's Is there a deck on the top of it?

On top of the on top of the wall?

Not right now.

So it's big hole right inside. Yeah, basically just a wall.

Yeah, but you can get inside that, right?

Well, there's a steel steel reinforcing.

Sean, are you anticipating that as you get closer to the house, it would become a deeper pool? Is that what the expectation is?

Uh, so as you get toward the water, it might be more of a reflecting pool or a waiting pool, [clears throat] but as you get closer to the house, it might be deep.

It may be, like I said, it may be a reconfiguration of pool. It could be, you know, a severe size decrease of the pool. It's really hard to say.

Yeah. But it's your we're we're talking tonight about the height of the wall and what's going to be clad on the wall to make it fit in with the have it congruous with the neighboring properties. That's what we're talking about tonight.

Right. The the decision has been made that 12 is where we're going to put the ball.

If something happens or something conditions warrant, it may be a return here.

You know, it's hard to say.

So, if you find that there's so much ledge that you can't even do any kind of a pool, you might come back to us and tell us you're going to build a patio.

Is that what we're talking about potentially?

Or how about rotating the pool so it's at a higher elevation on its current location? That way, the length of it is not biting into a lower elevation.

That may be a possibility, right?

Yeah. I'm not I'm not discounting that at all.

I mean, that might solve your problem.

And I would suggest you might be a shift in it and moving forward. Right.

Right. You rotate it and then you're not down as far. Um and if you did some uh test pits, you could find out what's below it.

Right. Right.

And of course, you can mechanically excavate rock. It's not a hardship, is it?

It's not a hardship. I think it would be quite disruptive to the neighborhood.

Well, we're not blasting, right?

No, but I mean, even if you had a hammer in there, it would be I think it'd be disruptive.

Well, I think that's important to know, right?

Okay. At this point, I'd like to open the public hearing.

Uh, are you done with your presentation yet Sean?

No. [clears throat] No.

Let's wait a second. Um, but there was a a question. Did Well, you in part answered it.

Can you state your name?

I have a state your name for the record.

Martha Sears standpoint should we wait till we open the hearing?

Yeah, let's let's wait for comments. I mean I can do his presentation first.

At this point I'd like to focus on questions. Um we can ask questions after that.

Yeah.

probably getting bad locked up.

Let me see. One final thing is, you know, what does the fence in the pool look like? What does the vertical cables look like? So, pool fencing, lease of trus, something along something along this order. Uh, sorry, something along this order. And I think everybody's seen the horizontal type railing that's typical that people use to, you know, be as least intrusive visually as possible. Not necessarily

this type of railing, but you can see that, you know, you can basically see through that part of it. Even though it's way up to the house, I don't think it's going to affect any of the butters, but it's going to be webbed of the house at the patio essentially.

So there's two different fences you're saying. One is for the pool safety, the other is for the patio. pool safety requirement is uh you can't be climbable and it has to be no more than 4 in casing.

So that's the one on the right.

That's correct. Black. Yes. So there isn't much you can do. You can't use horizontal cables because it's climbable.

The safety railing at the top. You can use whatever you want.

This we felt is the least intrusive of all.

So Sean, the pool safety fence goes around the pool. The pool and the cabling fence goes up around the patio.

Correct.

Okay.

Cuz now there's a drop down to the patio. Obviously, you're going from 17 to 12.

Uh I think I think basically that's it. And you talked a little bit about moving the kitchen around, the outdoor kitchen.

That was uh part of this prop new proposed plan was the kitchens being tucked back.

So originally, if you if you remember, I don't sorry if you don't remember, there was a pergola and a cooking area on this side of the upper patio.

Cooking area moved up against here.

Perilous eliminated.

So no pergola at all.

No pergola. Okay, good to know.

Um, can we see some pictures of what was there? I'm just interested about this concrete wall that you've called out that's next to the patio. So, we're focusing on the pool deck being cut down, but this is a new wall, isn't it?

Uh so this is going to be a little bit I can't. There we go.

So, I'll try to do this as best I can.

Can you zoom in with your fingers?

What if you touch the magnifying glass with your finger?

Some reason.

Is it frozen?

There you go.

a little bit too fast. Okay. So, here's the was the existing conditions prior to the pool being put in prior to anything.

This was done by another firm. This is someone and what happened was if you see this area here 17.2 was the highest grade right here, right?

And there was a septic tank existing existing septic system and it came out to elevation 15 up here.

Yeah. of the 12 the wall retaining wall right here.

But it was only 17 for it only was at elevation 17 for how much?

Uh well pretty much right. So now we have a giant rectangle that is at 17.

Right.

Right.

But we also had only 15 where now we have 12.

So you're saying here and that's elevation 15.

Yeah. Well, that's you're suggesting that's a kind of a cut and fill type thing.

I'm just trying to point out that that's why you need a retaining wall.

No, I understand is that we need why we need a retaining wall, but I we're focusing on this other retaining wall that you cut down and I'm just wondering about this other retaining wall that's not sure the top. Well, the new retaining wall that's right here. There's a retaining wall. This is the retaining wall here.

And there was a retaining wall here. The grade of 11 of 12.

Where is that on the door?

That's at the greenhouse. Right opposite the greenhouse.

Okay. But the greenhouse is here. And then this this wall is in front of the greenhouse towards the water. And it's right here. Right. That's So the greenhouse is here.

No, I know where the greenhouse is. It says that. But this is a retaining wall at elevation 16.4 four that is coming out way past the greenhouse right over there. Yeah. Yeah.

Existing retaining wall here.

Yeah.

So, but you sort of square that off. The intent is to put a retaining wall there so you could get a bigger existing right now. The existing concrete wall is there right now.

Well, where? It's not clear.

It was on It's on site. This wall is here right now.

This one is here.

Yeah. But it's not on this drawing.

No.

So that's an existing conditions drawing that would No, it's previous to the existing conditions.

When did that wall go in?

When did this wall?

Well, the wall that wall went in when Is is this wall here existing?

The house wall is Yes.

This is not the house. This is outside the house. The house is here.

Oh, I'm sorry. No, this this wall right here that was not existing.

Okay. When was that installed? Is that being proposed? I'm not. No, that's that's the way it's existing right now.

It exists right now.

Okay. So, but let's just clarify the term. So, so no nothing that um no no part of this new wall has been approved by the historical commission.

That's my point.

So, we need to refer to that drawing that situation as the existing conditions because what we're doing is we're talking about approving something, right? Approving a change to what that was. Understood. Yeah.

So, cutting down the the pool deck is good. Um, putting a retaining wall back in here uh is sort of not clear on this presentation what's happening with that, why that's there. Was that done simultaneously with this plan with the upper deck to join together? And was it ra Okay, that's what I thought. And it was raised because it was nice to be able to come out of the house onto an upper area,

right? One step down.

So there's no reason why you considered putting step down to a lower patio because most people don't like steps. Is that correct?

Well, there was an existing one step the deck was a little bigger and you can see there was existing one step down.

Yeah, that's that's not much of a deck though, right? That's a tiny little deck that was about 10 ft wide and now it's is it looks like it's about 25. It looks like it's about 30 feet long and it's about 25 ft wide. Is that correct?

That length right there. That's the patio right here.

Yeah. I say about Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And this is a walkway where it says composite decking that's already exist. That would that's existing. This that already exists.

So the logic was we don't want steps going down to this uh patio area. We're just going to put it up at this level cuz it's nice and convenient. Well, you sat down and it was existing.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So here then it kind of slopes.

Yeah. No, I understand. But you're down now. We're down at this deck level here.

Um I have seen projects where there are steps that go down to a lower level. So you're actually closer to the level of the um the pool deck. So anyway, just curious what the existing conditions are, if those are they.

Yeah.

So, this is a new wall.

Just be clear. Yes. There's a new wall that comes out. It comes out squares off and goes around.

Okay. So, it's 12. So, that's at 16'4.

The top of it. And on top of that, there is a railing.

Yes.

Yeah. So, we're seeing what's the top of that on top of that. And the height differential on that is significant from the lower level, right? So, yes. 4 and 1/2 ft.

Yeah. Yeah. 12 4 and 1/2 ft.

Okay.

And Mr. Chair, I know this is probably a little unorthodox, but could we have a brief recess? I think that there's a couple points of confusion that we just wanted to speak with Mr. Leech about to come in. I think it'll make this process smoother. If we can talk about a couple of points of clarification with respect to these elements of the plan, would that be acceptable?

Yes.

Thank you.

Regardless,

five minutes not going to discuss it long.

I wrote to Russell Baker with no answer.

I love that house.

Are you familiar?

His little house here.

So the name Russell Baker's house is beautiful.

It's a great house. I wish he was here.

Do you see neighbors texting him too?

Well Tom

sure.

Yeah, I think Betty I Maybe you should if you want to share this, you should share it um either with me personally or you have you have Betty you you did submit something to us in that regards.

Yes, let's that would require a change through the bylaw itself at a town meeting.

Let's just let's just

You're welcome.

Okay, okay, we're back.

We're back. Anybody in the hall?

The only Okay, please continue.

Okay, so uh basically it was just an uh agreement at all. an emphasis to say that you know the existing deck is actually lower than what this deck was on the existing conditions cuz it's step two steps down from the as opposed to one and that the existing area here is lower than the previous existing conditions I guess you just want me to emphasize that point. I'm not sure I

know Mr. Brian I know what he's saying and we're squaring it off. That's correct. Well, you're adding a wall to receive this squared off section, which means that you have a giant retaining wall. Yeah, it's 4 and 1/2 ft high. Give it Well, it's not 4 and 1/2 ft high, right?

Because it's 16 from the existing grade, which which where So, it's squared off here. Elevation 15.

We're talking 17. We're talking 16 and 12 at the retaining wall.

So, the land is much higher at that point. So, the wall doesn't have to be as high.

Yeah. Well, the problem is, you know, we square it off and now we're dropping it down to a flat pattern.

Well, flattening off, but but the the I'm looking at the contour lines here. It's 11.

Tim, can I just interrupt? May maybe um for the this I'm looking at a slightly different drawing.

Yeah. I mean, maybe Yeah, you're looking at the the drawing up there.

Look at squaring this off. Right. Right.

The elevation here is 16 and 15. We're talking a wall elevation 16 and a half.

Right. of the right here.

It's 15.

You're you actually building out to here.

We're coming out with a set of steps.

Correct. We're starting at But this is the edge of where your patio is going all the way out over here. So it's 10 ft right there.

So this is elevation 15.

Say 2 ft above that foot and a half. Uh-huh.

Well, the wall was 4 foot and 12. The walls are 164.

Can I just make a suggestion?

Yeah.

Sean, when you talk about elevations, forget about the elevations.

Okay.

Tell them where the grade is and where the wall is.

Okay.

Everybody can understand if the grade is is here and the wall is 2 and 1/2 ft above it, they can all understand that.

Okay.

It's part of the reason why I keep saying when I'm standing next to it, how tall is it? because Okay. I'm sorry.

No, no. I No. I I I get how it's drawn, but I think that in order to really understand the impact of what it looks like, it's helpful to have that reference point. Thank you, Jeff.

David, one problem is that all of that surrounding earth and soil has been moved or removed or and so when you say what what the level was uh that's an estimate based on photographs or no an actual survey done by before the work was done.

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah. The the contour lines are are here. This is this is the that's what was there before.

Yeah. So if you can picture this so the old engineer 17 to going out to where it's uh we're called upper patio area which is squared off from the house here.

Yeah.

It goes from elevation 17 to elevation 14 12. The height of the wall 16 and 12.

So that's like 2 foot worst case scenario and maybe a half a foot of where the grave would be. that how far down is it from the top of the top of foundation?

The top of foundation is 172. So it's about seven. It's one step down. 7/10.

Okay.

About 9 in.

Um, so can I ask this [clears throat] this wall here?

[clears throat] Go back here.

Okay. Go ahead. I'm sorry.

Yeah. So, the wall on the south side of the patio.

This one or this one?

Not the pool one. Yeah, the patio wall.

Yes.

Okay. To the top of the railing. From the top of the railing to the grade. How high is that?

To the previous grade.

No. To the existing grade. because the existing grade on the low side of the wall on this side right here.

So, okay. So, it's about elev it was previously before the work was done just so I'm about elevation 14. That elevation will be about 19.

So, that's 5 ft higher than where the previous was that makes sense. But it kind of it's kind of things that round we have a rounded slope here. So, it picked up very quickly to elevation 17. So you other words this squared off sorry this squared off section here the slope came around like this and it was an existing retaining wall coming out here which kept degrading.

So there was an existing retaining wall here which kept the grade higher.

Yeah it's okay.

Uh right that's the retaining wall.

squaring it off over here.

So it comes across but comes across just below like extension extension of the greenhouse and then squared off of the space of the house is about 3 or 4 feet down here. So the elevation here is 12 but there's a retaining wall that jumps it back up to 15. So there's that retaining wall had a 3ft height to it give or take.

Do you have any photos of that? Okay.

I don't think I do.

All right.

I got involved after the fact. I I have a picture of the previous.

Okay.

I'm just trying to imagine what the presentation would look like if you weren't building a pool and you were building this whole patio deck and whether that would be visible from a public way.

Would it not be the same issue as what we're dealing with with a pool?

Well, let's say you didn't build a pool deck area at the same height as a patio as we had before cuz everything was unified.

Let's just say that you build the retaining wall around the upper patio area. That would be coming out of the ground significantly also. Right.

Right.

So this is I've got the only thing I have. This is going to the septic system.

Yeah.

But if you look up at the top of the house there with the green.

Yeah.

That high right behind this set of 40 is where that retaining.

Oh, interesting. Okay. Interesting.

Okay. That's the best best I got involved after the fact. So that's the one picture.

But looking from wall, you can see how high that elevation was.

Obviously, this is getting squared off with a retaining wall there.

Yeah. Yeah.

No, no, it's helpful just because it looks natural and looks like natural grade coming down and it seems just fine with a raptic system. No, I understand.

It's just here, which we do have a foil that is near that area. So, we can use that as a reference point.

That's a new wall.

That's a new wall.

But that that wall was angled so you could get into a basement under the house or what was that for?

These are where the

So this is again this is the what's called the existing conditions prior to this application.

This greenhouse is is elevated and it's kind of a walk out greenhouse on this level.

Mhm. Below below.

Correct. That's like elevation 11.

And how do you get in? How did you get in through that?

Yeah. So this retaining wall help allow that to do do that.

Right.

So really my point was you take that wall and put it back in and butt the pool buted the pool terrace to that to make it all one contiguous space. So now we've dropped one area. We still have this retaining wall that is new that was added that is visible.

Right.

Correct.

That's part of this composition. But we haven't contemplated what that means.

Okay.

All right. That's my point.

Understood.

Yeah.

Okay.

Sean, if you finished your presentation, I'd like to get some.

[clears throat] So, um, like to get some input from the public. So, the public hearing is now open. Um, if you'd like to speak, I think the best thing is to come up to the podium, state your name for the record, and, um, tell us what you think.

Good evening. My name is Martha Sears.

Um I've been I wanted to pick up on the opening comments about um the public way aspect of of this uh project. Um, I've been sailing the uh, Westport, East Branch, and West Branch for about for over 30 years. And, uh, the tides were perfect today. And my boat was on where am I? This side of the bridge. And I I sailed up the West Branch. Um, and forgetting about tonight's hearing, I'd have to say

over the years sailing along the point has been fantastic.

You know, the the grade goes down, it's soft. The historic commission has done a great job keeping things in check from main road side.

Um, and all due respect, um, uh, what, uh, Brona Brona's pool or construction or what have you is just a complete eyesore from the river. I sail a Marshall Sanderling. I haven't seen any pictures of what it would look like from the public way, but I would wonder and I would be interested in seeing what this proposition is about from the waters way. Um it just it's it's really clear even though it's gray.

And um from a public way standpoint um I think that um it'd be a a sorry addition.

Thank you.

Anyone else? Betty

Betty Slade. Um, I'd like to ask Tim what is the point that he's getting at?

What is has to do with um the plans presented tonight?

What is your issue with the plans presented tonight? Is it because existing isn't showing or what are the ramifications? I'm trying to understand.

Okay. So you have a patio area that has a deck height and you have a a new retaining wall.

Yes.

That is put in to receive that new deck.

Uh prior to this proposition of dropping the pool deck, the pool deck was aligned with this upper deck which made an even a longer tall wall. So, we're we're right now we're focused on dropping the pool terrace down to have a lower elevation so you see less of it, but we're not actually thinking about this other wall that you that we're not even paying attention to. The wall that holds up the the patio terrace. So,

conceptually, imagine that this building has no pool terrace, but only has a patio terrace retaining wall. So visualize that you're going to see a big retaining wall around the house that we're not really focusing on. We're focusing on the terrace wall of the surrounding pool as being out of the ground because that's the most sort of egregious visual element. But there's still another visual element that we

haven't addressed which is this other thing which is this additional retaining wall. So break it into two pieces cuz that's what's been done. Sean has dropped it and kept this upper level. My question is, well, the justification of keeping at this height is that we had a top terrace over the or a height of what 17 ft. Then it sloped away where the septic system was. So the justification

is that's existing grade. We'll just flatten that off all the way out. So what's happened is this retaining wall has gotten bigger the further it goes away from that small piece at the top which is kind of like a crown. So the what in this kind of case it was not considered that we would move move the elevation of the upper terrace down to reduce the height of the retaining wall. and and what was stated

was that um we don't want to dig down so we're going to go up so we don't have to encounter the ledge rock. So it was contemplated we build everything at the same level because everyone wants a walk out pool deck and there uh and a walk out patio area. So in this case uh and I've seen very difficult sites with lead rock and people do things where they it's called cut and fill. So you move

one part from one area and you move it to another area and you balance the difference. So if we were at 17 ft at the top, you come off this top deck and you step down just a bit. That's really convenient for the homeowner, but they have all these steps now down to the pool. So what if you split the difference and dropped this top pool uh patio deck down another three feet, you

would reduce the retaining wall height, you would add a couple of steps at the top and you would connect the upper uh patio cooking area to be closer to the pool deck height. So it would be sort of more balanced. You wouldn't have all these steps everywhere. And then from the public way, you wouldn't see this big retaining wall. Does that make sense?

Are you basically saying that the approach you're talking about would be more appropriate than the approach that they've used?

Yes.

And that's for the the reason is the height of the wall.

Yeah. You're going to see a wall. We're focused on the wall of the pool right now, which is great. Has cut it down. I think you can cut it down a little bit more and it'd be better. Um, and the issue, um, but if you if you cut down this upper patio and put some of the steps up the top, I think that would be if I was designing this, that would be

my solution to the my client because it I think it would feel better.

Could I ask um and it would solve this problem?

What is what I heard uh Sean saying is that the depth of the pool is a question. Well, would that in Well, I'm just sorry.

Would that is that an a a thing that the commission should consider the depth of the pool?

Uh yeah, I think um I don't think I mean I don't mean I don't mean that they should I mean is that an important It's important for the homeowner of course, but that what difference does that make to the commission is what I'm asking. Well, if they come back and say we can't dig down and it's going to cause a great deal of noise and everyone's going to object to the

digging because they want an 8-ft deep end, um that's going to cause that could be considered a hardship possibly, but I think that should be explored.

Yeah.

not the purpose of the hardship but the depth of the pool should be I think probes should be uh made so we could figure that out not come back and say we can't do it therefore we need to put a retaining wall back right right I mean we don't want that no David David Cole following up on this discussion um I haven't gotten close to the pool area but I've had the impression that

the base that they've dug out for the pool has run into ledge rock and that there's a lot of rock down there. And uh I'm I'm wondering what your sort of whether you're planning on blasting that out or how you're going to if you're going to lower the pool to have any depth to the pool, how are you going to achieve it? Is it a real problem? I guess is there a rock problem and if

there is how are you going to deal with it and uh what would be the ultimate results and until you do some uh exploration of the rock depth and density etc. Uh isn't this all speculation?

No. Theoretically I'm sorry I'm talking to Sean.

I'm sorry.

You were looking at me. Yeah. If I may, I'll be happy to have your comments afterwards, but I it's a question to Sean.

That's okay. But I can I respond. Let me ask Sean this. Were you involved in the pouring of the concrete retaining walls?

No. So theoretically, whoever poured the concrete retaining walls would know where lead rock was because they would the footings would be on what I'm I'm not sure.

I don't know if you I mean I wasn't there and I don't they hit I know but my point was you would know where the lead was if you were pouring footings, right?

Because if you if you're going down 2T no but footings for uh have to be more than 2 ft, right? Footings have to be below frost line, right? Well, the plan was to grade up and around to lower the wall and lower the wall down.

No, I understand. But the still have to sit on something. So, it was it dirt or was it rock that the foundation was put on for that? And that would tell us where the ledge rock was.

Yeah. The only the only information I have is when they did the septic system, the existing septic system, they went down 30 in before they found suitable soil for a footing.

Yeah. But that's very Oh, for a footing.

Okay. So, there was no rock encountered.

No, because obviously there's a septic system there. They have to be, you know, have a certain amount of separation between the septic system and the bottom of septic system and the ledge.

All right. So, but because there's a significant amount of ledge, it's hard to say where the ledge is.

But Okay. But you're not designing the pool, are you? You're just doing Okay.

Sh. May I make a suggestion? So, we're here tonight on a plan that has a pool at a certain location. And to the extent it turns out that it's not [clears throat] feasible from an engineering standpoint because of the ledge, we'd be happy to come in on another application before the board.

Okay. I think that's fair. Yeah. I mean, I think there there is a question about the ledge and what you can do, but I I think it's I I think I I should point out and I just want to see from a visual effect, and this is something I think this wall that we're cutting down to is 12 and a half.

The wall on the north side is at 15.1.

The existing wall on the neighbor's pergola is 18.3, which is 2 feet higher than the 16 and 12. And it's twice as close to the water. So visually, I'm not saying this is ugly, but if you let it get finished and faced off, what you see here and what you see here would be identical.

Well, would they? Because that's a loose stone wall and you're going to put a veneer on. So they will not look identical.

No, it's going to be a true stone wall.

Is it? It's going to be stacked up against the side of that.

Okay.

And this wall and again there's a wall out towards water that's higher than the wall is here and it's closer.

But isn't that part of this whole grade scenario here where it's sloping away and doing different elevations?

If you look at this, this is 16.5 here on this wall and it's 80 ft from the water. But that's an exist. Is that an existing stone wall?

It's disgusting now. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's not.

But what I'm saying is visually everybody's worried about visually. I mean, right now I'm looking at a concrete wall and it's not very attractive, right? But because it hasn't been able to get finished, you're saying if you're letting it get finished, it looks like I think the difference though is I I think there's a significant difference between the property that we're discussing where the home is and the

sloping rolling down to the water versus where the property to the the Abutter property there, right? that home [clears throat] is at the end of the lane closer to the water naturally. Like I'm looking at the back of their home, right? It's it's it's just the position the position of that home is completely different in relationship to the plot land the plot line than the right. So, it it's just it's a different

it's a it's a it's different property, right? Um Yeah, this is much higher.

Yeah.

But it's also a much smaller lot and it's closer to the water. Um it it it's not on this rolling downhill slope.

I think it is.

But does it have anything to do with this new construction? Right.

No. What I'm what I'm trying to point out is there was a discussion about the visual effect and what you know these things are and I'm trying to point out as a part of scale that you've got a 7ft wall here 82 ft from the water and there's no problem with I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that. What I'm saying is what you're looking at here is concrete wall.

It's not attractive. He said it's not finished. So Sean, one of the changes though that you made from previous presentations that you were not part of, but now this one is that you're actually going to construct a brand new stone wall in front of the whatever the remaining concrete is that once you cut it, there's going to be an actual stone wall built in front of it.

I think we were January. You mentioned that before we weren't cutting a wall down, but in January, this is going to be real stone in front of it, but it was clad with stone before. Now you're going to build a stone wall.

Okay. And then to Tim's point where he was talking about this retaining wall that is he's looking at as a very separate project retaining wall for the patio the new patio. How will that be treated and can we go can we go to three of five so the commission can see what I'm talking about and maybe everybody else cuz it's sort of not clear.

Three of five.

Three of Yeah. Can you zoom in at all a little bit on what's happening and just go to this and if you can scroll down to the patio and then scroll up. Yeah, right there.

Right there. So, move over just slightly this way if you can.

No, no, the other way.

Yeah, that's good.

Okay.

Right. I didn't bring my pointer with me, but can I borrow your ruler? Thank you. Screen, right? Otherwise, scratches.

Well, no, it don't move.

So, we can understand from the diagrams what's happening, which is the proposal is to cut the pool deck down to here where it was.

Sorry. Touch it.

Very.

Yeah, it is.

Okay.

Yeah. Um, a little bit.

I won't touch it. Yeah, just zoom in slightly and then scroll up. Perfect. Perfect.

Perfect. I won't touch it.

We we the prior the prior height was up here right?

Yes. 16.4.

So we now cut it down to here.

Correct.

But this was the pool deck prior and this was this was a terrace deck up here. So when we cut this down, we're still going to have all of this retaining wall right here that we haven't been thinking about. That's my point. So now we've got this down, which is great. And we can see it's a coming out the ground a little bit down here.

And that's fine. And this is our railing, which you know, we haven't really discussed, but we understand what that is. But it's really important to understand what this is because that is going to be much bigger than what was there. And this used to be sort of green sloping wall with bushes hiding it. And you could barely see this retaining wall at the back because that was next to

where the greenhouse is, which is really here. So the greenhouse was down this level and there was a retaining wall that kind of came out obliquely from the side of the house that had bushes on the top of it and then it sloped away. Is this correct? Am I describing it correctly?

Well, just a correction. So the greenhouse, the top of the greenhouse was here. The walk out.

Well, that's what I'm saying. So the walk out was here. There was a retaining wall about here allowed you to get into the greenhouse and then that that retaining wall kind of came out like that in the side and it sort of I don't know what happened to the little portion of it but from the house you would come out and there was this green sort of hill where the septic system was. So

what we've done instead of keep the green hill we've now created a big deck area here with a big wall on the side of it. So this is good. This is what we should be looking at from if you imagine that this application was really not about the pool deck. It was about adding this patio. You would then say is it visible from a from a public way and is

this area here visible? I believe it is right. Yes.

So that issue is the thing that we should be focusing on cuz this is good amilaration um initiation and this I have question whether it's really doing what we want it to do and whether that's acceptable.

I just had a question.

I just

this gray all in here and then this line on top of the gray.

Mhm.

Does that represent the existing I mean the gray that you're proposing?

Yes.

So in other words, as you come up, there's this wall right here.

That's I didn't touch it. I mean, this wall right here that comes up to there, that's the that's the pool wall, right?

So, that's what about this high?

Uh, at the worst, it's 3 ft high in that far left and then high. That stone wall is about that high. See?

So, then the grade starts sloping up, correct, as you're going that up as you're going up and then it levels off because there was that landing there, right? And then it comes up here again.

I think this is screw up. It came up here again. So this is what you'll see on the side that you're talking about.

Yeah.

So all these little stones that the big fat gray line you see is the what you would see if you saw the stone wall. In other words, I'm not showing the property line wall, which is what this big fat gray line represents here.

[cough and clears throat] Oh, that's what you Oh, that's that wall on the property line, right?

So, everything below this dash line right here, you don't see.

Correct.

You can't see it from the rightway, which is out in the water. And you can't see this anyways from the road. So, oh, maybe the chair running.

Yeah. So, so, so that's that's the line of the wall. But my point is that this is the grave. And you were asking about where the grave was and what you'll see.

So you'll see what you see on this drawing. Those little rocks.

Yep.

That's exactly what you see.

Yep.

What's the elevation of this up here?

This the patio is elevation 17.

17. And what's it down here?

About 12.

Okay. So it's the wall height.

4 and 12. So this this right here is 4 and 1/2 ft.

So that's what's above grade. And probably from my midshin is how much is above the wall that's literally 8 ft away from it.

Well, that's 10 as well.

Yeah, 10.

Um, that's the property line wall. So, that's that's the height of that wall that you're seeing. So, [clears throat] you see this on the side and then down here you'll see that wall is this side.

Lower, but yeah, you won't see you won't see the wall as you go towards the water, right?

Yeah, John, would you mind?

I'm sorry.

Because of this word elevation, just start again and say your name and then John and I'm one of the interveners. Um, the idea of the interveners getting to something that we thought we could live with was to have that wall mirror the wall that's between the property lines in height. In height, not in elevation, but in height. So as that goes up and then we used to have the elevations at

the top and bottom of those walls. walls get to be they're three and a half to five feet tall and this wall is similar to that not exactly I'm not trying to match but the idea was that it mirrored that wall that is between Sally's property and the bron that was the concept of down I can't say that that just

are there other comments from the public I do have a question with Sean.

[clears throat] Uh Sean over here. Hi.

Sorry.

Uh you're quite a fellow to put up with all of this, but thank you.

Used to.

Um I've got a couple of very simple questions. The total square footage of the area that you're adding against the total square footage of the existing construction.

Um, are you adding more square footage than you actually have already on the site?

Are we adding more square footage?

Yeah.

So, the the the site as shown here the site as shown here is larger by this area than what was there. That makes sense.

In other words, this I don't want to call it a wash, but this would already raised this patio. So, let's say onethird of the patio area and the pool would be extra.

The question I'm asking really is the house is an existing house. It's in scale with many of the other houses.

There's there's no issue there. the sum of other outdoor areas that the total of that square footage appears to me to be greater than that of the house.

That's correct.

That is correct.

So, getting back to another issue, it's just I'm I'm trying to listen to everything as we all do. um the scale of this um for activities that probably are very important but versus the interior activities in the house. The scale of this seems out of proportion and to a landscape and a historic district that otherwise has a a very different sensibility, a very different feeling.

My sense is that some of the reactions here really have to do with the fact that and from the water as well as the land that we're really creating something too large for the context and the context is an historic district because we have watched this community grow through very small additions of rather small houses and this is the area that we're trying to preserve.

This is the area that we're trying to preserve as the historic. And even if you did each of the things you want to do in scale, the total product is going to be out of scale. And I think I think that may be I'm trying to we're all trying to assess why you know there usually a few supporters use a few kind of I haven't heard any supporters at all.

Right. And I you know so the house is approximately 3700 ft. We're adding 4, well is what the kind of total footprint here. If we remove the landscaping it be a little smaller. So, we're, you know, we're looking in the ballpark of doubling LCA, for lack of a better term, what is [clears throat] there, but I can tell you from my experience of living in Westport that there isn't a

house that hasn't done that on Westport Point that just did a different as a different thing. Now, the problem is when you do a pool, it's automatically a huge jump in area. You know, you're going to have you're going to put a pool in and it's not a huge pool. th000, you know, but with that and an apron automatically jumps it up. You know, the scale gets big no matter what's you had

three acres here would be the same thing. I understand your point about the scale of what's being added to the house, but I've seen things get added to houses point much larger than this.

The scale I'm not sure in any historic district is necessarily the scale of the hand of the producer.

There no big machines 250 years ago.

They're no. But it's just that the appearance.

We're talking about all the vertical issues here. But I think it's really a horizontal issue. I think it's just very very large and maybe not even necessarily as large as I mean it could be smaller and still have a pool. I mean, for family, you've got two decks that could probably take either of them take the whole neighborhood.

It's just scale. And it's not in scale with the the historic district, the historic homes, and this rhythm of the whole.

I have a question. What is your definition of an ingground pool?

That's a good question.

Right. So most people's definition of a inground pool is that the top of the deck is flushed with the gray the grass and then you have a pool fence around it, right? So if you were going to build a inground pool on a flat piece of land, what would it look like? Right? It would probably look like it's flat with that.

So in this case, we have a plinth that it sits on. So it's technically not inground anymore. Well, it would have been ing ground on the upper part, but not on the lower part. Yeah, cuz it slow it slowed down 12.

Well, it it Yeah, but it theoretically you could have a very lower elevation at the s uh at the uh western end of it.

And it could you could have a very low wall around it. That could be a retaining wall. And it could the the this end of it, the east end of it would be much lower, but you wouldn't see it.

It would be behind that. So the pool fence would be at a much lower elevation that it's proposed to be at. So we're seeing that out of the ground because it's on what I'm calling a plinth because you you put it on retaining wall because we cut that down. So in my opinion, it's not an inground pool at this point.

It's sort of in a PL. Anyway, just wanted to bring that to your attention.

I mean, just to address just if I could.

Yes, I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. Uh, just so I can address that. I agree with you, but it gets to a point where you can only lower it so much on this side because the septic issues and where the drain, you can't cut into the septic system.

Understood. Okay. Well, that's a good point because and then we have drainage moving around and right now it's it's graded so it drains past the house. You don't want to create a bathtub.

No, I know. But if you rotated it, you wouldn't be that close to the septic system.

That's possible.

So there is that as a as a way of uh mitigating that.

Cuz the existing grave right now you've got a foot of wall showing on that.

Yeah. You could also reduce the size of the upper patio, rotate the pool and move it closer to the house and have that solve the problem. Also, you could also extend I mean there's a lot of things you could do differently to reduce a the scale b the limiting factors of the septic system and the grade issues. Right.

Um Eric, you had a question.

Yeah. So, Eric Fel is my name. Um under the new plan, um what's most prominently visible is fencing, right? And I understand that the fence around the pool is subject to very strict requirements um of the building code and so on, but the the the fence around the patio presumably, you know, could be chosen by you by the builder. So, I'm wondering, have you considered looking at some of the

historic fences around the neighborhood and thinking about something that isn't so modern looking with those cables?

Right.

In in principle, it seems it should be possible to have a historic looking fence. And with the goal not being invisibility, but rather like being in like consistent with the rest of the neighborhood and and the answer is yes. We could look at that, but I think it would be more visual impact. I know the the cable fence is very popular. It's nic people think it's nautical looking. I've never

seen a rope that was cleared, but uh it's very low impact visually for everybody. You don't see crossmembers and that type of thing. Uh that's why we went that way. If you went with a rod iron looking fence or something, I mean the house is not historical in any way, shape, or form. It's not a This is an opportunity maybe to to make it more historical.

I don't know. as much as we do to make this historical looking

other comments. [clears throat] So I also have a concern with with the with the size of this. I mean, not not just the height, but the mass. And I know you were referring to the neighbor's patio, [clears throat] which is 400 square ft, right?

This is 4,000 ft. Over 4,000 ft.

The I mean, we all know whether, you know, you want to recognize, you know, this is existing and we're trying to get to a point where everybody's happy.

There's not much we can do, you know, for what we're showing here. And I understand that. I mean, we try to address the visual concerns of from the public way, the uh looks from wherever. I mean, obviously, you can't see from the road.

Uh you can see it from the river. I tried to bring up the picture. For some reason, my pictures won't load and I'm not sure. Your picture, for instance, of the saw cut. Uh I also took a picture from the beach parking lot.

Oh, you did?

Yeah. And I wish I could bring it up and some reason it doesn't want to load. I'm not sure why. So, uh, but if you look at where if you cut it down from like across the river, like from the cherry wet parking lot, I took a a very easy picture. You wouldn't see this wall at all. The wall that's on this side hides it completely. You would see the patio.

I'm not I'm not just kidding. You can see these windows on the house.

Yeah.

But you're not going to see from the wall. And with fencing being what it is, you wouldn't really see a lot of the fencing either.

Well, and the whole point of this basic presentation was to come to an agreement to try to as much as we could with logistics and what we're trying to do here, cut down the visual impact or the impact that we see from the river.

I'm sorry again. I've been sailing the rivers for over 30 years and I have to tell you the most amazing sail like I had today was you know coming around the plane going past Drake going past the harbor master going along the point it was amazing it's like cherry and web people who park in cherry web aren't looking at the point it's it's when you sail along the point and you see the

homes like that. That is the public way.

It's absolutely extraordinary.

Cherry's a great parking lot, but I just Well, you're not s you're not sailing in front of this house. There's not water.

No, but I see the back of it and I see the back of the point. And I'm not the only person who sails it. I'm sure other people kayak. I just I [clears throat] love the point. I just I love the point too. I've been I've been I've been using water point for now 64 years.

Yeah.

So green crab boss they all have a story go on and on.

Sean, can you bring up four or five?

Thanks.

Oh, John.

Again, I'm John Mor and represent the interveners.

The the task uh yeah, we want to see uh we Tim, let's start sorry.

The task that we tried to address was dealing with what's there today.

not what was I mean I think all of us would have preferred to see nothing but with what we have there today we tried to come to a an agreement and we do not think we have any authority relative to this group this was a question of we don't have any any particular expertise as relates to architecture or antiquities but we were trying to get to something that the neighbors could live

with if you can live and what you can live with and we leave all of that adjustment to that is entirely in your hands And so we don't think we have any overriding opinion on anything. All we had we were able to get to a an agreement which took us a year and a half to get to which is something that we think we can live with. We're not all happy, but we can

live with it because it's a it's an accommodation that works for what the the homeowner was trying to achieve in uses. We're not trying to make any comment about the fact about what you have authority about, what you think we think you should have authority about.

There's nothing in in our opinion about that. But this change in elevation, both getting a couple of steps down from the house for the patio and getting 4 ft additionally down for the pool area to make the the vision from both the adjoining houses and from the sale be much much better than it is. The unfortunate thing is that if you look at it now, you're very concerned about what

it will look like at the end. There's no question. But our thinking was that if we matched this up with the budding properties from heights, that was as good as we could do and get to something with what the existing condition is. And that's why we came to an agreement with the uh proponent that we could live with this. Doesn't mean you have to live with it, but it means we we feel as if it was

a reasonable accommodation. That doesn't mean you have to live with Thanks.

Zoom in a bit.

No, the middle drawing. Yeah, thank you.

Great. Perfect. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah.

So, this is what we're going to be seeing. And that is the upper deck with the railing on it. And the lower pool deck, as we just heard, is certainly much better. as a compromise, right?

Still not great. But the issue that I'm really focusing on is what we're seeing behind that because it's coming out of the ground. And as one of the members here, public pointed out, it's going to have a railing on the top of it, too, which is going to if it's black, it would be very visible. If it was stainless steel cable, it would be less visible. If it was a white picket fence,

it would be very visible. it. I don't see a real reason for it to be historic in nature, but the point is you're going to see this big retaining wall on the right here. Uh, not that right here.

This giant retaining wall coming out of the ground. And, uh, it's going to be very visually jarring. So I can suppose I'm sort of suggesting whether or not that can be lowered because it's in similar condition as this existing retaining wall posing to cut down. So there's nothing inside. It hasn't been backfilled and it hasn't been completely constructed yet. So there's an opportunity to reduce that down and

reduce the differential which is to me visually jarring. the size of the the size of the whole complex [clears throat] I don't think you'd be able to see and I agree it is giant scale but you can't see the scale of it but this kind of announces the fact that this is a large scale project by this tiered effect if you were able to split the differential that effect would be uh

it would it would be affected it would be less jarring visually. So that's my kind of point.

So you're saying the right retaining wall of something more drop it drop it down so there's less of it that we're seeing it and it will be less of a massive sort of mega complex if you will.

I think until you break the the pattern though the straight line is so well different from anything else here.

Yeah. Well, if you broke that up, the scale naturally falls down.

I disagree. I think it's the retaining wall below it that you're going to see.

And if that was stainless steel, you wouldn't see it. It would be shimmery, right?

And or if it was glass, it would be glinty, but you know, picking that is a is a maybe a color thing also. But it's this ju just to be clear, there's stone going around them wrapping around this whole thing.

Well, so you're going to see this layered tiered effect which you don't see anywhere at the point. You're not seeing layers of retaining walls. It's like rip wrap. You know, you've got a balance of that and then another one here. And it looks very uh engineered.

So it is not in harmony with it surroundings. Whereas if you were able to reduce that down and sort of I don't know split the difference, it would be less visually jarring.

Take another foot and a half off this lower one and drop the other one 2 and 1/2 ft and then you know you're you're closer to something which be sort of maybe in my opinion. That's my professional opinion.

You drop the upper one a foot and a half or something. Drop it so it's not out of the ground as much and then you know then you have a compromise. Right. Right now I think we're sort of seeing as the butters are saying we worked hard to get this to be this height which you have and you've done it and it's good but I don't they've been focused on that not

this and I think that's what's important at least that's my professional point of view. So Tim, are you also saying that the upper deck could should be cut back or both? You could do both. You could do both.

Comes out and then down again.

I mean I I if you were sort of reworking it, you could do both. As Sean is saying that there is all sorts of issues with with ledge rock. We don't know. We should talk to the excavator, see how far down that was. You could turn the pool, move that back and reduce the extent of the whole thing if you if that was the intent is this is a fair compromise.

Tim, I I appreciate your willingness to try to help solve and troubleshoot and Right. Yeah.

But I I I guess I also sit here and think um I love a walk out basement.

I love a walkout basement.

My house doesn't have a basement. I can't have a walk out basement. And at some point, sometimes when you have a piece of property and you site the home and you do something with the home, there [clears throat] are things that you can and really shouldn't do, right? You you probably can do anything. Whether you should or not is a different question.

And I guess I'm just struggling with where we are right now where we're trying to troubleshoot when we're building an ingground pool on a ledge with a large uh patio complex in a small historic village. And I I guess I'm I'm just struggling with um what what are like is you know part of what we're trying to do or are we like I mean are we saying hey collectively if you do XYZ then we're

fine but I I don't think that we we can brainstorm ideas but I still don't think we're at a place where we could say yay or nay.

Yeah. My my re my reason behind my questioning is yes you could do anything and this is what would happen if you did anything this proposed scheme right then I'm saying that when you work with restrictions and you work with um uh the local zoning ordinance or the commissions and you have to get approvals you have to meet their approvals so we can go back down that path and understand that if the brief

was for it to not be visible from the public way. What would you do to solve that problem? And this was not done with this. Uh and the sol the problem was solved by just building retaining walls and putting the pool in. We don't know if there's ledge rock because there was no excavation done and there's no test pits done. We do know that they put foundations in. It probably sits on

whatever ledge rock. Maybe there is no ledge rock. Maybe there are pockets of boulders cuz this is all glacial, right? We're at the we're we're at a glacial fill. It's not all solid rock.

We're not in sort of main coast. So, it's possible you might hit a few boulders here and there and you could drill into those and bust them open and you can get a very nice pool. So, my objection is really uh this thing is kind of big and it doesn't fit the it doesn't fit the um the historic commission's uh uh rules and regulations of what should be appeared visually. And

I think there is another solution that would make it appealing. I'm not trying to come up with it. I'm just giving I'm trying to give ideas about if I was to solve this problem and I've had to solve problems like this and I've gotten them approved through multiple commissions uh in different places. Landmark commission in New York City um uh Beverly Hills Cultural Heritage Commission and the

Planning Commission in in in California, Monteito Board. All of these things require the same kind of thing that we have to do. And I'm just suggesting because of this experience, I'm seeing what could be done. I'm not suggesting what should be done. I'm just want the commission to understand what I'm seeing as a as a design prof as an architect and how I would address this to problem

solve it. And and I understand you know that and I would I would leave it at that. So there's a number of questions here. Uh Sean, the possibility of lowering the patio. Now the patio comes out of the house and you go down one step.

Um two steps.

Oh, you said before one step.

You just need one one step. We're actually lower than what was existing.

Okay. So three is you're how many how how far are you from the top of foundation to to the patio of the floor the top of the foundation of the house.

Yes.

And then down to that other two higher is you're going down two steps right. So the the top the silt elevation is here and the patio elevation is a foot and a half 1.7 ft lower.

So, the objection was the height of the actual stone wall of the patio. If you lowered it a few more steps, then um it's possible, right? We're not talking about ledge or anything else. We're just talking about lowering it.

That is possible.

Just to be clear, the existing top wall is lower than the grid that was there existing.

Well, well, that doesn't We're not even concerned with that. We're concerned with the fact that people are talking about the appearance of that high um patio which doesn't seem necess necessary to be that high.

It was lower than the existing grade.

I think that that the that the fact that you're saying that is true, but visually it's not true. Right. So if it was there and it was lower, you had gr grass coming down over the septic system with a bush on the side. You can't really tell what was happening. No one could really see.

So, yes, that might be the case, but we're not putting it back.

You didn't really get permission to build this wall the height that it is.

It just came up with everything.

So, it didn't get proposed to the commission that we're building this retaining wall that we used to be at the same height. So, it's not like a grandfather thing issue that you're suggesting. It is something that the that we're we're focused on this pool, but we're not focused on these other components. So, we break it down into pieces to solve the problem.

Just to be clear, the retaining wall that was Yeah. Yeah.

there was higher than what is there now.

That's okay. But look at the way that everything drops off. So, it's not an apples to it's not an apples to apples comparison really. So, I just want to be clear that what we're looking at. I mean, I I I I understand, but it's a little disingenuous to say that it's sort of the same. It's because it's not. It's an entirely different thing because what and I'm not sure if everyone understands this, but what

everyone all those tight uh contour lines at the bottom that are held by that retaining walls coming out at an angle made this look like it was actually natural even though it was hiding a giant septic system, right?

And that was built up over time when this house was probably put on here. But the natural grade is not that uh and it's an artificial grade. So what you're saying is we take the artificial grade and put a a patio on top of it and build a retaining wall to hold it and then we'll stick this other thing on the end of it now and at a lower level. You

still have a thing that is not does not feel natural to the property or the area and it's very angular as well. So seeing all these things multiplying the sum of the parts are greater than the whole in this case.

Sean, does the patio have to go in sync with the pool or can it be less?

So I mean does it have to be the same aligned as as the pool or could it be a a smaller patio? Is that is that a possibility? So it doesn't line up exactly with the pool so it looks like it's cuz the pool is very low. it it well the all the walls are pulled so and they've poured based on the design of if I may just it could be

but it wasn't designed that way right so it wasn't poured that way no it's not poured that way so you can't change well you could you can cut this off and shrink the whole thing so there's less of it but that's you know if you're cutting it down why not just cut the why don't you consider reconfiguring it in a way that works that everyone's going to say yes to

cuz I don't think I can smaller as well as I can't say yes to this tonight cuz it it doesn't fit what I can say getting there. It's good.

Uh I think I think that there are there are creative solutions to this and maybe getting there we can analy I think the the bigger problem here is you know everybody sees this concrete wall that's been sitting there for 2 years and you know and the visual aspect of that is what's affecting what's going on. If you put a stone face on that and you're looking at it you can't tell if

there's an angle or a square.

Yeah I think you could and I beg to differ. Uh, I mean I I I beg to differ because that will look like it will not look like any other wall in the area, right? It will look like a wall is 5 6 ft high.

No, it no, it it won't look like a farm wall. It's going to look it's going to have uh concrete. It's going to have stainless steel ties on it. It's going to have mortar in it and it's going to be anchored to this wall. All these others are not built that way.

It's a completely different feel of a wall right?

And it's going to be big. No, there are no farm walls around here that are this tall.

The wall is that tall.

I'm talking about the patio side.

On the patio side, the wall is 4 and a half by f.

No, it's not on on this side here. It comes out of the wall how far? Well, I think Mark was making the point that the scale the horizontal scale goes almost an equal amount as the house itself, but I think the point is it's very large. You've got this elevation.

Yeah. Well, that's a slightly different.

It goes all point the house that this goes all the way across. I'm just talking about what is the height of the wall from here to the top of that, right?

16.4.

Anyway, if you just the whole thing a lot if you cut it there, that's more in scale with the rest of the size.

Sean, I think we've heard a lot of words and we're running out of them almost, but I think there are a couple here that could summarize this. This is a residential setting. It has a residential scale. And then it even has a more refined scale because of the the means uh and the ability to spend time constructing it. So scale, but a residential scale. I think I heard from the water this is a commercial scale

and that's an offense in a historic district. No matter what way you residential and commercial.

I'm [clears throat] not sure I understand your reason weaving there, but it's just commercial is to enclose as much space as you possibly can so that you can on that space basically create harmony more with with profit than with appearance.

And in this case, we're not looking for profit. We're looking for harmony.

Sean, [clears throat] could you bring up sheet four, please?

You want to see the picture?

Looking at the photograph, look at the photograph of the wall.

That's my point.

So on the left is a rubber wall that is slightly inclined as a retaining wall and your wall is is it going to be battered like that one or is it going to be vertical?

It's going to go right up against the copy wall.

Well, I know. So my point is it's going to look like a vertical face. It's not even going to look like what you know what a batter is, right?

Yeah. It's fairly vertical because it doesn't it is but it's not that high. and you're saying, "Well, it's actually the same height." But I I disagree that it's going to look the same because the way it's built is not the same. U not all stone walls are equal. If you look around town, there are some people that can build very nice ones and some people that don't. Right. And so this

one when it's got some is it it's going to have cement in between it, right?

Probably could be dry laid.

So dry. You're saying it's dry.

Is it going to Well, it can't be dry. it it can't be drylaid unless you unless you hide it from the back. Uh and that's going to be tough. Uh and then you're going to have uh a thickness of the veneer uh about whatever the rock size is. So you're going to have at least 18 in of rock.

That's how all walls are built here. I mean if you really go around here, all the walls are built right.

No.

Some of them are cut stones. Some of them are piles of stone. Some are some are stones that all just stitching together because we have great people here.

I have I have hundreds of them at my house.

Disagree though with your statement that that you can't put these stones up against the wall and you can't make it look like I can show you a number of different walls.

I I I disagree with you uh because of the way that it's made. It's not a drylaid stone wall on a concrete backup.

it's going to have to be tied into something. Whereas you can come at my house and look three different types of stone walls. Some are uh tighter and more dressed and some are rubble and you're telling me that this is uh going to look the same. I don't believe you.

So Sean, can you address this? How I mean do you have a detail of how that wall is going to look? I do not have a specific detail other than we, you know, stating that, you know, it's going to be a stack. You know, there's going to instead of a veneer like a cut veneer type thing, it's going to be actual stones along a built stone wall and just just leaned against the the the concrete wall.

Okay.

It doesn't it it it doesn't it'll because of that it will stay up. It's not going to have a camber of 40° or something like that by any stretch if that's what the concern is.

Well, let's assume he can build a stone wall in front of this concrete structure that has been cut. I think what we were talking about earlier is the scale of the structure itself. If you look at horizontally, it just seems like it's too big against the house itself. If it was if it was less square feet, it might, you know, might be more attractive for the house. and from the river because that's a very large I

think what people are saying is very large structure even if it's cut it just goes horizontal for a very long time and then the patio that Tim was talking about earlier the patio will align with that horizontal line and and make this continuous visual that's much larger than the scale of the house longer so Sean we we Haven't really talked about the equipment area yet, which is not being effective.

Correct.

And it looks like that's about 10 ft high.

Well, I don't know what's I'm I'm just measuring from it's about elevation. It's 16.4. It's the same elevation of what the wall is all the way around.

But from grade from grade measuring from grade it's about 5 to 5 and 1/2 ft high at the top. And this is expected to be graded off. So it be above that high.

But it's an equipment room to hide all the peripherals for the the pool and everything. And that is a better solution. There's no other you know having the open is a good idea obviously.

I mean it it but it but it to me it contributes to the sort of haphazard feeling of this whole thing that that you're going to have that equipment area box which I guess will also be faced with stone.

Yes. And then you'll have this lower wall. And then you'll have a a fence, a barrier fence during the pool. What's the height of the barrier fence compared to the equipment?

It'll be low. Uh so 12 1/2. It'll be about the same height.

Mhm.

Cuz you have to walk out over here.

It's hard to see from this angle.

Walk out.

So the walk out has to be what? 8 ft.

Walk out to 10 and 1/2. The silver wall is 10 and 12. So the top of the wall 16 and 12. Just gives you a scale for 6.

So So the wall top to top to grade where the walk out is. What is that?

60. But there's already existing foundation wall there too. Just so you're aware of that. That's what's holding it to the house over here.

This thing walk out you know in this wall the foundation wall the 172 slightly higher than the wall that's existing poured whatever you want to call it that doesn't make it okay though no but I'm just trying No understand that if you're working from an existing condition then there are assumptions you can make but you know because the existing this dash line that you see that we're facing is the

existing foundation wall that holds up this whole side of the house yeah but you could have I don't know what's what's to stop you from putting the equipment in a in a pit pitish right 18 well we don't know if there's any ledge because no one's done any exploration of [clears throat] I mean, it sort of defeats your your attempt to make this look like a stone wall because you've got the crowd

got a fake stone wall that suddenly goes behind this.

Yeah.

Well, the the the option is a pit or exposed equipment. I mean, we can hide the equipment behind the shed. I guess everything is whole different thing, but yeah. Well, adding adding another stone wall and at the equipment shed just and it's a different height. I think Darren's like a terrace wall here up here. Too much stone wall.

Yeah, you're going to see that through the pool fence as well.

So the pool feathers is not trans. It's it's not transparent, but it's not solid, right?

But you're going to see that as well.

And it's going to, you know, all these railings and everything else.

Um, and then we haven't even gotten into the lighting. Uh, this thing's a large construction and it's layered, right?

And it's not broken up. So visually you've got these long swaths of horizontality that are not consistent with the the the the character of the neighborhood.

Question have you taken a look at that little area that you're talking about person you take a look after anything take a look at it?

I can go and look at it but I can see it that you barely see it.

Well you can you can't see it in water.

So, no, no, you can you can see they're cutting down the in the front.

Yeah.

And and going if you're talking about that back side that comes off of the building, there's bushes there. There's also another wall buried in the bushes.

So, yeah, that's that's not the the point is we can see it from the water, not you can't see it from the side or your butts, right? That's the issue.

If if I understand, maybe I don't understand it, but if you're talking about the wall that comes out from the building, that's extremely hard to see even when you're underwater.

I'm talking about the What are you talking about?

The wall that that has equipment area hidden on it.

I mean, it's sort of wall that runs north south right there. Is that high also?

That's not being cut down. So that's I don't know, three months ago.

Yeah.

If you can see the part on the right from the water, you can see the part on the left from the water.

Further back.

Yeah. No, no, no. I understand what you're saying, but the concern is as Commissioner Stuck said.

So what I'm what I'm Betty Sling what I'm hearing are two major problems. Uh one is the size of it and the other is the walls around it. And my question is does the commission have any suggestions on what they uh think that would be acceptable? I know I've attended all these meetings these years and the big argument that I kept hearing was the height of the wall.

The size of it was mentioned once or twice, but it wasn't emphasized as much as the height of the walls around it and what it would look like. So, we're coming this is, you know, already sort of like this. Uh, are we saying they have to tear down part of it? They're agreeing to cut the wall and like like that, but do they have to take down part of it also to

satisfy the commission? I mean, I'm not happy about the whole thing, but we we do need to, I think, have some guidance here if possible from the commission. I would say I would sorry can I well let me I just want to correct the record that that but I think we we have had concerns all along about the total mass of this.

It was that's true. It was it was talked about um but I think from the viewpoint of the people attending it was mostly what we could see was the wall. I mean that's how most of us looked at it. But I agree that it's very large. I think somebody I think you said specifically the size of it the house is about the same size as the house or bigger.

So what what what should they do?

Well, I'm not as concerned about the the size of the area coverage because horizontally you don't see the entire area. What I'm concerned about is the various heights from that's what excuse me that's what you're concerned about but Mark was concerned about the area. So now we have two major problems.

Well, they're not necessarily problems.

They're observations.

Well, I mean problems for getting approval.

Yeah. So, well, I I think what Tim was bringing up, Betty, is when the wall gets cut down, then the patio becomes a much more prominent feature that is very visible from the water with a lot of different materials being fence on the pool.

That's a requirement. And the railing, and they're trying as hard as they can to make that railing disappear, but it's still two levels now because you can see the second level as a second level. And there's a very long horizontal line that you're seeing through the river. And all the other walls are they're they're perpendicular to that line. They're not horizontal. They're going toward the

water. This is this wall will be going along the water. So, it's a very different look from the water. All the other walls slope down toward the water.

And this one is this horizontal structure of wall and patio and fencing.

So it's got a lot of different levels.

That's why the comment that Tim is making is as a result of the wall being cut, now you're seeing other elements that you didn't maybe focus on before.

So that's I think a valid discussion.

It it's also not necessarily solvable with landscape, right? because then you're going to have a reinforcement of his horizontality by planting unless you put all sorts of different shapes of things to to distract the eye from the fact that you have this large horizontal band. But the planting would be helpful.

I see a tree on this drawing. I don't know any heights and textures.

You can't consider plant material.

No, I understand. But I'm I'm I'm trying to imagine it with and without. Let me throw this out as just for the sake of because my preference and this is without Rob's concentration itself was to not was to grade it out more as an oval slope and have the landscaping so it look more natural coming up to this.

Yeah, that might be we haven't even gone into that but that could be that could be a solution. So because you know when you have like you said well if you have this horizontality everywhere it's going to really be very very obvious despite the height of the wall right because you know so if you if you pushed out the gradient to an oval type slope and blended it in with the septic system

it would look more of a natural type landscape. I mean, you could also harsh line.

Well, you could also put sort of a planter as well. You could put a planter at the end and change the shape of everything. So, you could build another lower wall like the retaining wall or the wall next door on the neighbor's property so it looks like a dry laid stone wall and that would soften the horizontality of that.

Yeah. You mean coming down? They proposed that at a previous well you know you get rid of the harshness of all these corners and edges and you know you have a very softer they propose similar to what's going on your wall goes into the landscape exactly you know and then you subtly you visually you're you're you're deconstructing this horizontality so anyway but I don't know if that that's not

going to address the scale in any way.

No but it could break down the scale minimizes the harshness from the river.

Yeah.

Otherwise, as Mark is saying, it looks very commercial.

It could break down the scale. So, breaks it up.

The problem with um doing that is that the historical commission really has no say over and the bushes etc. Therefore, they don't have next people who live there could just take them down and you'd have nothing to say. Yeah, it does seem to solve. This has been discussed several times before, too.

But it's just not something that you have uh any I'm not talking about landscape. I'm talking about walls now.

I meant I thought you were talking about bushes.

No, we moved away from that.

No, just moved on.

Oval.

Yeah. I'm suggesting using uh potential retaining wall that breaks up the horizontality of the uh long uh retain or the long pool retaining wall uh to soften it. That's all.

So, Tim, are you talking about right here?

Replacing one of these walls?

No, I'm talking about adding to it.

have a high point here.

See this terrorist doing something like that here, right? See this? This imitates the name.

Put that there and then suddenly you've hidden this and it could be planted whatever. So anyway, I have a question solution to some of our issues.

Um, I think that a fence going around that pool area is hideous.

Okay.

Is what?

I know you have to have something for a for to code, but the fence [clears throat] is not the only thing you need. You can use a stretch system to have a motorized cover go over top of your pool and that you can actually walk on it and it's approved by code. So you don't even need a fence.

And when you're not using it, it's closed all the time. And when you're out there with supervision, it's open and you can close it whenever you want. It's been used elsewhere in this state. So I'm sure that that would be something.

And if you ask the owners to do that, uh they might I don't know what they'll say.

Well, we haven't got to that point, right? Because takes care of this huge horizontal I'm still talking. Sorry. this huge horizontal issue that I think is really that black fence going around and now and and now if you eliminate that then you truly have like a terrace landscape rather than because the upper one kind of disappears but you have this terrace landscape rather than this this scar

going across his land. So I think that could be a good solution.

Thank you Jeff.

Yeah. Well, how high is that pool deck off that? Because you need a guard rail if anything's over 18 in.

Yeah, they have that designed as those cable rails.

No, I know. But but the removal of the pool fence and the replacement with a cover, a retractable cover doesn't necessarily in in this 30 in. So that's that's how high that is. 30 in.

So you don't need a handrail for anything over 30 in high, right? So maybe that's a solution.

You just grade it. I think you'd grade it to make it less than that, right?

Yeah, you grade it. Exactly. Make it less.

Then if then there's a solution that would really simplify the it would I think there was a full cover in the original, wasn't there?

It's a recent change in the code. The code used to mandate a barrier the term that they used and then these covers have become I guess vendable enough. I actually I have a cover on mine. My son was very upset about his house in concrete and he has this cover on his and does not need specifically does not need just so that's a good that's a good suggestion.

So are we looking I mean obviously we're looking to continue you're not going to make a decision tonight or a decision that we're going to wait one more question.

Yeah.

If in our in our negotiations we're pushing pools alive on both sides to get to something that the games could be happy with. I mean, I guess the simple question to figure out where we're going, if the pool side selection section can be dealt with in this way and if we could satisfy the fact that the we can get a hand laid out wall that will satisfy from a visual argument.

So that's the that's the test. That's what it has to look like. Then the question is your upper deck were reduced by a couple feet. Would that get you to a point where you could be move forward?

I just put that out there because we kind ofated the issues and we solved it.

We got close. I suggested yes, but we bated we figured out some pool and the lineality of it. Did you reduce that next piece?

Like the upper deck is what 4 and 12 ft higher than the lower terrace right now? Yes. So if you cut that down even a foot, that brings it down to the scale of a three and a half foot wall.

So John, what you're saying is would that cutting that upper deck down satisfy the commission?

Yes.

Is that the direction?

I think it would I think it would go a long way forward. I'm not trying to No, but I think it would go a long way to satisfying the commission. So when you say cutting it down, you're saying when [clears throat] I walk out of the house, instead of walking down three steps, I might have to walk down five steps or six steps in order to get to the outdoor kitchen area and then walk

down an additional x number of steps to get to the pool.

Yeah.

And so by virtue of lowering the deck, we're lowering that wall.

Yeah. Yeah. And that, you know, unfortunately is uh one of the problems you have with this kind of design problem.

But is that true? Is the outdoor kitchen, isn't it going to be tucked next to the house or it has to be So now what's going to happen is, you know, you're going to be looking into, you know, you're going to be sitting at a countertop that basically the foundation of the house will be here.

Yeah. That's which doesn't really, you know, it doesn't really work to me. It doesn't. I know, you know, but just I mean the whole point is when you have an outdoor to go in and out and what have you.

Well, there's also window wells you don't know about, but there's window wells all along those two walls and and the terrace has a has a glass piece on top of it, but but it allows light down in it. Now, if you're talking about bringing it down, I I wouldn't go as far as what was applied over there.

If I dropped another foot [clears throat] go any more than that.

I'd like to keep it maybe three steps. I put two feet down instead of one foot down. Um I would say a total of two feet down. And that will allow them to keep their their light going into their basement windows, which is important down here.

I think I think it's three steps down.

Three steps down from the Yeah. Well, sill from the sill to the patio proposed patio.

And and so is is the idea to get get to the point where you don't need railings between the upper terrace and the lower terrace?

No, I can't get there's no way to those rails aren't that bad. Those are those are kind of you still need a rail around the patio.

Sean, can you point out where those those skylights in the deck are? Uh, they're along here. Yeah, I've got a picture, I believe.

Yeah, you do.

Yeah.

Page three.

Yeah, I saw saw them in that picture. I just didn't know where they were.

Garrett.

Garrett.

Mr. Chairman, I think we've got dozens of concepts here and I don't think in this setting they're going to be reduced to enough to truly inform Shawn and the owner and so forth. My suggestion is with as many variables, we can go on for a great deal of time. we're not respecting the fact that we have three or four other people that want to be covered that um they should uh they're very good listeners. Sean, you're

amazing.

But on the other hand, uh, in time, I think you'll figure it out because you got a lot of interesting feedback, useful feedback and that that I would propose that you use that now and come back uh again and uh and display all that uh that wonderful intuitive grasp that you'll have with the So I I I think we're still having a productive discussion and I I don't want to cut it off.

Few more minutes.

Yeah. I think it's worth it.

It seems like we're getting I think the the idea of using the pool cover to possibly eliminate the eliminate the fence eliminate the lower part that helps a lot.

That would definitely reduce the visual effect.

I mean, of course, I mean, there's there's going to be all sorts of furniture on these decks. And yeah, I don't think it necessarily don't look exactly like this but Yeah. No, but there'll be walls and and whatever.

But the other uh good change was the pergola was eliminated. We were we had a concern about the pergola and that's eliminated.

If we tuck and say, but if we tuck the pergola up into that corner, would that be a problem for lowering the deck? One of the things I'm concerned with the pergola is so high and you put if the deck is lower then the pergola is lower. So that okay follows.

Well, it's not going to be okay. It's not going to be that lower because the top of it is going to have to grow so it doesn't hit the windows of the upper level, right? And then you're going to have lights on it. So those lights are going to be part of this whole complex.

So that's something to consider.

Yeah. I mean, you know, that's that's a 2,000 square foot patio with no shade.

Also, I wonder about drainage. I mean, where's all the water going to go from that? I mean, well, it's going to trickle down to the lower level and then obviously go keep going where it's going, but uh you can put drains in around the pool, you have a patio, and there's not much you can do. I mean, you're talking not a lot of I know it's 3 in of rain like we've been getting. Uh

there's going to be a lot of water pouring off of that. I mean, it's obvious going to be pitched to drain, but it's just going to go onto the paddent.

It's going to run, but you can put a trench drain along the bottom of the wall and catch the water.

You're going to have trouble taking your pool deck material, stone or wood, and connecting that with your stone wall on the exterior, too.

It's just it's fine. It doesn't matter.

It's not relevant.

What's the proposed material for the deck? Is that the patio deck? Is that Is that materials you've called out or is that What's that the Yeah, I don't I have it [clears throat] on my phone. I have a picture on my phone. So, it's like a paper type system cuz that looks like wood decking or stain.

It's going to be a paper type system, right, Rob? It's a stone. He emailed it to me, but I couldn't get it on the computer for some reason. So, so and the uh proponent the that is coming out of the house three steps down. It was one step down previously and it was pressuret treated lumber that was all decaying. So, we're going to replace it with composite, replicate the light wells that are there. And Jeff's

point about the light walls is a good one because they're also concrete foundations and that lowering that upper patio would expose those and I don't think that's anything anybody here wants.

Um, so we were when we designed it, the idea was replicate the patio and the grass area where we could have just put a a patio and that's about what the size of that upper patio is. Um, we spent a lot of time in hearing was three and a half years and a lot of the conversation was about the height of the walls. It needs to look like the walls around. We

took that in consideration yet. We spent a lot of time trying to figure that out.

John came out to the site a few times.

Uh, he brought some other people out there and we came up with where there was nothing that was bigger than what was around it. The top of that equipment vault is level with the wall to the north. It's not any higher than that.

And the new lower pool deck is lower than the wall to the south. So, we thought that was a a good solution. Um, and everybody looked at it and we all agreed before we put together the plan and brought it to you. Um, I take your point about what would be, I suppose, a new wall, bringing the pool deck between the pool deck and the upper deck, but there's going to have to be a staircase

there. And we're proposing a granite staircase.

Um, and I also take your point about the wall to the south up against the house.

Um, the wall that was there was bigger.

You know, again, we lowered it from what it was. I could have just done a patio where it was without anything, but we decided we didn't do we didn't want to do that. Uh, we could replace that wall with a railing and expose those granite stairs. So, that would lessen that impact. you would still see the stone wall to the inside. Um, and that was John's suggestion was to replace it with

a railing. It might be less it'd be less expensive. It might also be more less visually impactful. So, we said, "Oh, we'll consider that." So, I think that's something that would help mitigate that.

Um on the corner on the corners your comment about the corners we had to various iterations proposed there are a lot of boulders on site using those to create uh to mitigate that grade and we could do that. I mean we could do that fairly easily and with the landscaping uh and we could do that and we talked about doing that. Jeff came out to the site. John was there too uh mitigating

that particularly that south uh southwest corner um because that's that's the biggest part of that. Of course that's pushed in now. Um so those are all things I think we can address without having to create new problems by further lowering that upper patio. And to Mr. Brian's point about the scale, you don't really see it. All that you see from the water is going to be the stone walls which are going to be

staggered and made to look inscale with the walls around it. Um, and I think the other any I think that addresses what's been brought up here and resolves this once and for all. So we can all move forward. We don't have to talk about jurisdiction. We don't need to deal with the courts. Uh, what I can build, what I can't build. We tried hard to come up with a compromise. Now, the reason we

can't do test pitting, first of all, it's stop work, so I can't bring equipment out to the site until we all come to some sort of an agreement.

Secondly, there's an almost fully constructed pool and spa on top of that.

That's filled in. That is filled in now.

Um, that's all going to have to come out, which I'm willing to do uh in order to get to that compromise and to get the walls to the appropriate height because that was the overwhelming commentary over three and a half years of meetings and hearings was that wall's too big. I think we came up with a good solution and I think it'll look I think it'll look good. And again, it's jarring to

look at a large concrete wall, but when the stone I already have the field stones, we got them from around here, from construction around here, new septic systems. They're exactly the same stones that are there because that's where those the stones that that are there came from. They're sitting in a yard in Westbor. They've been sitting there for a couple of years now. I still have them. Um the mason I have is a very

good mason. Um, in terms of how they adhere to the wall, they will do it with you can do a dry system that has more you can't see. Uh, I have some of those at my other home. Um, I think those are all good common sense solutions to get us past where we are.

And again, we can eliminate that lower fence with the pool cover. Willing to do that. We're considering that to begin with. Uh well, we had to have a a barrier at the top anyway because of the fall protection. Um and I think again the fencing was to mitigate visual impact. We looked at um a glass fencing, a low a low lead glass that is not reflective. You didn't like that, so we

switched to the cable. There are other cable fences.

Fine. Again, we're trying to meet people where they are and do what we can to make this work. And I think that does address a lot of it. And again, those boulders on site on that southwest corner and then plantings make a bed and put plantings on them, I think mitigates that. But again, that southwest southwest corner would be lower. Um, and again, if we can't do a pool, we

won't do a pool. That's okay. I mean, if it's physically impossible, we won't do it. Uh, again, we're willing to make that compromise. We want one, you know, have children and young nieces and nephews in the area, but if we can't do it, we'll do our spar. We'll live with that. And if we decide we want to per a little later, we'll have to follow.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Could you explain again how you're going to get the wall to here?

So, what they'll do is like we've done it before in other projects um where they'll cut the stones or shape the stones so that they they can adhere to the wall and they'll use mortar, which you won't be able to see. Um it'll look as much like the stone walls around it is is as it can possibly be done by doing that, but that was always the plan was to do that. It'll just be smaller

walls now.

Okay. I'd like to talk a little bit about the railings.

Um, so [clears throat] the railing on the upper platform, you expect cable railings.

That's what we're cable system. And yeah, I just like to get input from the commission, maybe from the public about that particular choice.

I mean, I think from a distance, you don't see I think it's I agree. Right.

And I've seen it done and it does work and you don't have lots and lots of railing.

Um, it does look very modern though. Well, if you do see it, well, I do I do want to note that the park service requirements for historic districts um is that projects that are change alter alterations have to match the house, not the things around it. So in in that respect it it it is conforming with the law.

I don't Yeah. I don't see the house as a historic uh thing artifact. So the modern railings are just part of what the house is. So I don't have a problem with that.

When was the house built?

1980.

1980s.

1980.

It's more 1980s. Okay.

I mean I mean think think about the historic district as having periods of historic historic uh uh construction. So we don't need to copy all of that and make it be the same unified. So I think you could easily do a cable railing and I think the thing would be would would reduce the apparent scale of the whole thing at a distance. Um I how about I mean it does add to the

horizontal. It does. And I do think that the height of that upper terrace is much too high and that's going to amplify that. So I don't think it's uh I don't like its position. But I think if you eliminate the vertical pool fence that's down below, uh I think that would go a long way to make things better as well. So quiets it down quite a bit.

Immensely. Immensely. Yeah. Yeah. No.

And I think in terms of fencing, I I agree. I agree. But but I also want to know would you be um using the pool cover then?

Yes.

Is this something that will go into this plan and make that a condition? Yeah.

Okay. So with the two fences, the fence up above and the pool cover, I would agree with that.

others other other opinions about the the fencing extent how how big it is is such an impact on the neighborhood the historic district it's just the extent of it my I'm I'm trying to envision right so I like the idea of the cable application because it does kind of disappear but it is more modern. Um, and I think about there's a lovely home on Valentine with a really we approved a repair to their

fencing um that's up on their deck and it's not, you know, a like a just a normal that's a terrible word. It's not a plain application. It has a little bit of interest to it. Um, it's a lot of vertical. Um, it's vertical.

It's vertical, but it's broken up with boxes if I remember correctly.

And the design.

Yeah. And maybe that would be too much for this, right? It's like another thing given the fact that it's 50 feet long by 35 ft long, right? Like that's a lot of fence.

That would draw your eye to it. Make it make it disappear. the there is the glass panel system as well which is you know pretty pretty transparent. Um I've used I've seen that done with great success. The issue is whether or not is reflectivity. It's been mentioned we could use a low iron. Uh it could be effective.

Yeah. I almost think of that as being even more that seems obvious more modern. It is, but it's it's more transparent and is the difference of the cable and that they're basically the same in in content. you could make it less modern and have wooden posts in between the glass, you know, and do it that way, which we had initially proposed that um and there was a lot of opposition to that

and and including with our negotiations.

That was something that we said, okay, well, I'll make the change.

Just so you've got an array of solutions, which one is is a is a better looking solution? Um, I think both comport with the home.

Yeah.

Um, and as you said, like that's an 80s design and it needs to comport with the 80s design.

If it's thin and it's and it's a a stainless steel cable and you put turnbuckles on the end of it, at least you've got and you could do, you know, wooden uh mahogany post between it, you would have at least some sort of nautical sort of uh nod and it might feel less modern.

Yeah.

uh the the danger of it is it becoming a little bit more commercial, but you know, I've seen it done and it's effective.

There are several houses up and down the river that have that facing the river and they actually look that's not it's not terrible.

There's one right across the room from me. It's actually a relative of mine that has that on multiple levels and you don't [clears throat] see it.

You don't see it.

I think the important thing is that it shows that it's is more invisible. I I think if doing other things just the regular um cable fence would make it sort of dissolve away because you have that long horizontal line that we want to get rid of.

The other the other concern is my neighbors on Valentine Lane to the north. That's their water view over that. So, we did not want to affect that. [clears throat] Um, I mean, I've got plantings there now that I probably trim back for them, uh, when we can get back back to doing work on the site. But, um, you know, I let them know before we did it, hey, look, whatever we put up there, you're going

to be able to see over it. And that was an important component in the fencing, which is why we initially proposed glass and but cable was what we agreed. So, yeah.

Is there a view ement that we have to worry about there?

I'm sorry. Is there a view easement for those neighbors that we have to worry about? No, just an accommodation.

Okay.

Any comments from the public about railing fencing?

I mean, you alluded to some feelings among the abundance that you don't see except the sun is constantly moving and And so it does have a tendency to reflect the properly done and I don't know the answer for properly done but a stainless steel cable right won't see it. Yeah I agree that and the pavers we're going to use for the hardscape I had sent Sean a picture um but apparently couldn't get it

uploaded. Um they're granite they're about 3 feet wide and six feet long. Um so it they have a like a vertical look.

You can't see them from the public way, only you can only see them from the house, but it would um we wanted it to sort of blend in with the stone walls to have that same sort of rustic stone appeal, not a modern marble looking square.

Okay. So, I might have I might have a picture on my phone.

So I think I think there are a lot of good suggestions, good ideas that have come out of this and um uh I mean definitely the the cutting down of the wall is a is a huge improvement.

Um we've got some other ideas here that that um you guys could explore. Uh I think we also need more detail about certain things. Um so what does that countertop look like?

What's What's the lighting on that upper patio?

We we aren't proposing any new lighting up there. There's lighting on the house already, but we're going to keep that.

Um there's going [clears throat] to be lighting in the pool. Um and then as Sean uh you said eyelid lighting on the staircase just for safety. Yeah.

Low LED sort of lighting.

Yeah. There also some [clears throat] there's some detail lacking with the with with the steps gates. There'll be gates in those fences. And well, there won't be a gate anymore because the pool's not there.

The upper What's that?

The fence isn't there.

Yeah, but the g the cable fence and the stairs down from the upper. There be some sort of gate or we're proposing now, I guess, limiting that wall and doing a railing. I would just follow the cable.

I'm just saying we we need some detail.

So, you would propose putting the cable all the way down the staircase basically?

Yes.

And I won't need a gate.

No gate. Okay. So, those are the kind kinds of details we're looking for.

Um other things that um uh [sighs and gasps] well there was some suggestion about how do you break up visually uh using the the native stone that you have that's there.

Uh where would that be?

Mhm.

Um would that help to break down the horizontality of this distance without landscaping? I think that's something that would be interesting to see.

Yeah. And I would like to see an example of this um of of the stone. Not it's not a veneer, but but the the dry laid stone.

We had um submitted that. We have pictures of the actual piles of rock that we collect.

Yeah. But I don't want pictures of the piles of rock. I want to [clears throat] It doesn't have to be your example, but it could be an example.

We had presented those. Did your installer have um he presented those at a hearing back in two years ago?

Yeah, you had a landscape person in here a couple a while ago and um he actually I don't think what he gave us was very helpful. So, it' be good to have um an example of the person who's going to install it. They probably have examples of this exact wall that they would build for you. So, that could be be useful so we can imagine it.

Yeah. And then we would want specifics about the cable fencing. I mean, if that's if that's what you decide to do.

Catalog cuts. I mean, okay. No, no. I mean, again, most of this is is acceptable before you get too far down the path, you know.

Yeah. Um, so yeah, I mean, I would say, okay, you know, try to incorporate our suggestions. Um, give us more detail.

So, and on the kitchen, we had not really designed it because the project stopped. Um, it's not going to be elaborate. It's going to be a countertop with a grill on it and maybe some stools that come out in the winter summer.

So, it's movable. It's not installed.

You said it comes out in the winter.

No, no. The Well, we just put stools in front of it like it's going to be Is it installed? I would I would also recommend a model the three-dimensional model of it so everyone can really understand it. A lot of people can't read plans or elevations.

They do have modular. We did talk about that. John and I talked about it. His son's got one. Um which then it's furniture. So it's not No, I'm talking about a model, not modular. Oh, you're talking about modeling a computer model of the uh proposal proposal so it's easy to understand these complicated issues make it much easier for everybody to agree on and there are companies that can do

these relatively inexpensively. I know you've spent a lot already on it but I would highly recommend that as an [clears throat] effective communication tool to a commission such as this.

Yeah.

So those particular details, is there anything else that you think you need to know?

Sorry, Betty.

You you mentioned that they thought that the patio was okay at the height. Uh none of us have said that we agree with you.

The problem is that lowering it further.

We've already lowered it from where I could have built the patio before um because the grass was that level. It sloped off, but it it it went to the end of the house before it sloped off. Kind of where the patio is ending now. The the upper patio is ending now, except for the equipment vault. Um right. And then there's actually a deck off the master bedroom that does go out past the

equipment vault at that crate, a higher grade actually. So lowering it further again creates additional issues with the house, the foundation, the sills in those the foundation with those light wells. Those are all going to end up getting exposed which creates additional design structural problems, visual issues.

Doesn't have to be the entire deck. It can be some of it that's lower because you're going to see now more of the retaining wall without the uh above the above the pool deck. So that you know is going to remain an issue in my opinion.

Well, again, you're going to see mostly stairs because it's going to take up most of that.

You only have a stair in the middle of it. It's not mostly. It's maybe a quarter of the elevation or is it half?

Half or more.

Here's multiple doorways.

Yeah. If you look at that elevation, yeah, multiples multiple multiple on the on the pool terrace. I don't think so.

No, on the upper deck.

Yeah. I'm not talking about you could patio.

Yeah. I'm talking about what you see uh across the pool deck with this big retaining wall and you have a very large area that you could potentially uh terrace step down another well that would be creating another wall two more walls and we're we're trying to lessen the walls.

Well, you've got one that's very tall and is one that's shorter better? That's a question.

So, so he has one that's the bottom one without retrading which he's going to do, right?

What? 2 and 1/2 ft.

Yeah. But that that doesn't make And the next one's 4 and 1/2 ft. So, is that the one you're talking about?

Well, the one the one above the the pool deck, right? Saying that's 4 and 1/2 ft.

Is that 4 and 1/2 ft?

Yeah. 12 and 12 to 17. So again, it's in context with the walls around it, which was what we were asked to do, and I think we achieved it.

I mean, I know you're you were not on the commission at those hearings, but there was a considerable amount of work that went into this, and there's going to be considerable expense on my family's part to just achieve this.

So, so I think a 3D model would be especially helpful for understanding things like this, understand the relation between those two decks.

I just I just want to say that um we've talked about walls and so forth, but size do you have any comments on the size or is that you're accepting the size of it as in general you have not said you should consider something smaller?

Well, I think I think I think we did. I think Tim suggested taking I'm talking about what you're saying to the to the applicants now. Are you saying it should be smaller or is it okay now we're worried about other things?

That's so I'm voicing my opinion on the fact that you don't see the volume of it. Uh and I wasn't here when these decisions were made. So, I'm more concerned about what we're seeing visually, and that's what I see my contribution to be. Obviously, if the walls were made smaller, there would be less of it. So, making the making the patios and everything else smaller uh would certainly be an improvement, but

you know, in the effort to sort of try to shepherd a compromise, my opinion is that maybe these adjustments would be sufficient.

I do think it's too big. Uh, and I think it would be more appropriate if it was smaller, but I didn't I don't think that's necessarily what's going to happen.

Well, and again, a lot of the pri conversation was the upper deck, right? That's the grade that was there. That that's what was there. And then I extended that grade.

That's what we did when we designed it.

And that was the big problem was. So, we've fixed that. And I mean, I just don't want to keep moving.

I I don't think he fixed it to be honest with you.

Made it bigger.

Tim, if he you saying that this patio here, if you brought it back a bit, brought it back and dropped it down.

And dropped it down. You still have the same size, but it's dropped down. So, you're breaking up the horizontal.

Yeah. But um and he's saying that there's an extra wall that you have to do because you have to drop it down and have another wall there.

And then the the effect that you were concerned about is the multilevel situation that's just going to exacerbate that if well the upper level doesn't have to have a stone wall on it. It's the height of the stone wall that you're going to see layers and layers of stone walls is the issue. It could change the material on the upper deck and that would change its appearance. Right. You mean the the

west facing elevation?

I guess.

So that the idea is from the water. What we agreed is that you would see stone walls.

Yeah.

Well, I'm also thinking about the side elevation of that.

Right here.

Yeah. Yeah. The the the entire sidewall.

Yeah.

The south elevation.

South elevation.

I mean, that's my main concern really.

The south elevation.

Yeah. It's all going to be stone and you're not going to and again you're only going to be able to see 2 ft of it above the wall that's next to it from the river.

Well, that's why I think a model would be useful.

Well, we have a picture.

Well, picture is not a model.

Okay. The um the the other thing I think you should take a look at is is the equipment room because to me it it's going to stick out like a sore thumb.

I agree with that. Well, I think we can do again, we have boulders. We got to worry about pitch for the water. Um, and again, I wanted to hide the equipment. I can't see it from my house, but the neighbors can see it and hear it. I can't hear it from my house.

Um, that was extra expense to enclose it. That was the design. We had the option not to do that. We decided it was worth spending the extra money to do it. Um, otherwise it gets exposed.

I mean, if I'm forced to do that, I'll do it, but I just don't think it's the right thing to do.

And we'll do what we can with landscaping to mitigate that. Um, you can put a wood fence around it.

This is supposed to have stones in front of it, right? This is going to be a higher stone wall.

And again, the height is the same height of the wall to the north.

I mean, exact same height.

put a wood fence around the pool equipment. I Where is the height of the base of it? [clears throat] You know, I lived next to someone who did not enclose their equipment and having a hamburger on your patio and your neighbors outdoor equipment kicks in.

It's pretty brutal when you want to just listen to the birds.

So, I think that I mean I I I agree with you, Tim. So, for me, I'm not an architect. Could you tell?

Um, and so not having a 3D model, it's very difficult for me to visualize. I've gone down to the end of Valentine so I can peek. I've gone over to the wararf so I can peek to try to figure out what this is going to look like. It's It's hard, right? Um, and so I I think having that model would be helpful. You know, I think Kit Wise put one together for the church.

Yeah. He does little massive models that are not that hard to make.

Yeah. I couldn't do a project like this without a model and I couldn't go before a commission without a model to to show them what we're planning to do.

And that's the easiest way to, you know, get everybody on the same page. So maybe that's one more step.

Yeah.

Okay. So we're making huge strides.

Equipment room is important to keep an equipment room.

Yes, definitely. Definitely. you know, saying to expose the equipment.

So, I think we're probably all reaching the limit of our uh ability for tonight. So, so I I think the the thing for you to do would be to ask for a continuation.

Yes.

And um we can continue this next meeting and look forward to Yeah. I do I do want to make this impression upon you that neighbors of mine have said finished the project.

We're tired of looking at it this way.

Um, so in terms of continuences, if we could do a special meeting sooner, tired.

No. No.

Could we do a special meeting?

I don't think so.

No. In part because I'm going to be away.

You'll be away. Yeah. August is tough.

So, we probably should just put it first on the agenda for September.

Yeah.

What would that date be? Uh September Sunday September 2nd first week. Yeah, September 2nd.

I've got to here. No, no, that's on the 3rd.

Wait, September 2nd is a Wednesday.

September 2nd

6 p.m.

That's our regular scheduled meeting. Y Wednesday the second so just want to make sure we know everything so that when we come back and and Sean can reach out if you have more um clarifications just some of the things we're going to have to discuss are detail the detail stuff we're going to have to discuss um and then whether or not the whole patio thing continuation.

Uh I don't have one tonight. No. Um we can do it on a piece of paper and then formalize it. Okay. Let's just do that.

Except exactly this.

I have um do we have I have one we can mark up because we have one from the other meeting.

Just mark that one up. Do you need a blank piece of paper or what are you looking for? Let me find um Can you do a model?

I have the other continuation form in my file. We can just mark that up.

So if Sean wants to reach out to the commission, he can do that for what? What is the limitation of that? He can't um basically commission you can't have more than three members deliberating on on something. So you couldn't reach out to copy paper.

You just copy this.

You could use this.

Okay. Well, you know, I've done that before when I was think in a prior version of this. I did that and I solve helped people solve problems.

Be a great idea. We've done that before.

And I'm wondering one really. Okay. I mean I mean I've worked with him in the past.

Is that a problem?

Okay. Well, I might be able to help you.

Very good.

I think we all

Yeah. Okay. Well, that's helpful. I just need to understand the rules of engagement.

Well, you can't you can Yeah, I can do it.

You can't have a sort of can't have over two people or something like that.

I would just do it as a one to one thing. You can't have a committee.

No, no, no. But, you know, I can he's sort of a little hamster and says that I'm just septic engineer. I know exactly.

Yeah. So, this this should still be covered.

problem.

He won't move into historic district in particular.

Well, it could have been settled by fascinated with his own style and that was presented to him in the university alumni and the board have something that we enjoyed.

Sean.

Sean, can you sign this? Continue.

We're just continuing this to September for the last week.

Sure.

Why not?

Okay, we're continue.

Yeah. Are are we don't we need to move to continue or we're because Yeah, I guess we have to because I I I do just want to follow up.

There was a comment that Tim made about making the patio perhaps a little smaller. I also would appreciate that. I think that the scale is still very large for what they are proposing and so I don't want them to come back assuming that hey we're going to come back with a 3D model and everything we talked about and we're good because I feel that it will get us closer to where we need to

be. But if I I would not be prepared to say yes I am okay and I know a few people have said that this evening and I'm not in a position to be able to say that based on what I've seen. Okay.

[clears throat] Okay.

I mean, I think we've made tremendous strides. It is so much better, but I'm not I'm I'm That's just where I am with Okay.

I don't want to get into legalities, but the the laws matter and the reviews on what you can and can't do. I'm willing to compromise. Obviously, I think I've demonstrated that.

Yep.

Um but there are certain things you can and can't do. And I think if Mr. Stuck has read some of that stuff, I've seen him reference it.

Yeah.

Section 10. You haven't adopted those rules. I think it'd be great if he did because then it would be a guideline.

Okay, I can go this far, not that far. I didn't have any of that. We just designed what the zoning ordinance allowed us to design. And if I knew that in advance, I would have said, "Okay, commissioner, this is this this is what your regulation your guidelines are. you adopted these additional restrictions and I designed it to meet the restrictions. I didn't have that guidance. So,

okay. I think I think we we need to move on. We another matter here continuous vote and then we can get to the next step.

Thank you for Okay.

So, uh next item to continue.

I'm going to skip I'm going to skip to item four. Can we move to accept the continuence?

Thank you.

Okay. I make a mo a motion to accept the continuence to the September 2nd meeting.

Okay. Is there a second?

Second.

Okay. Roll call vote.

I.

Mark Thompson.

You say your name and then I do.

Mark Thompson. I Katrina Stros I.

Ward Mooney. I Deborah Chi.

Garrett Stuck. I William Kendall. I Timothy Bryan. I Okay, the motion passes.

Uh, we are continued until September second.

September 2nd.

Okay. I am going to Let's see. Is John Roy here?

John Roy.

Okay. So, I'm going to I'm going to skip ahead to item four, applications for demotion permit. Um, 253 Adamsville Road, Peter Arist.

And Glenn, I apologize. We're required by law to do public hearings before we do anything else in these.

Thank you.

Same.

Okay. My name is Lenn Potter. I'm here in behalf of Peter Mesty, Pine Hill Farms LLC, who owns 253 Adamsville Road.

and um they're renovating the farm and one of the issues they've taken down the 1950s bond and now the issue is to knock down the old barn the older barn. Uh I've I've given you pictures of some pictures and these are pictures of the walk itself.

Mhm.

Okay. Thanks.

We have others that you submitted.

I didn't.

Okay. Good.

Yeah. These are entirely problematic these structures.

So anyway, the barn itself we know was old. Um it is in poor condition. It's and owners don't think it's worth the money to renovate it.

Debra, could you pass the the building looks a little when you walk into a concrete floor and the concrete floor what happened in the 19 late 50s early 60s and milk inspectors required this this barn has a manure cell involved. So, it's got a true solar under it. So, of course, they framed in the floor with two 2 by10 planks, thick planks, and the cows stay right on that.

The gutters, the manure was wood. The milk inspectors came in and they wanted that covered with concrete because when the cows lay down, the others are close to the gutter. Because they lay down, there's dampness plus the urine. So at the end of it was bacteria that could contaminate the cow's uter and therefore the milk. So what they did is they required concrete be placed on on the

floors and the jars. So farmers being innovative the way they were they didn't build any fancy for work underneath steel plates. They just poured two or three inches of concrete right over the top of the woods. So what's happened over the years is that concrete has trapped moisture has trapped the moisture that's in the woods and it's rotted away. When the Santos brothers own the farm, two cows actually fell

through the floor through the note pit because the the framework of the old floor finally gave way. You can see that almost one pictures.

Is this the one you're talking about?

That's the Yeah, they fell into the So good thing the manure was there. save the cow. But anyway, the owners want to uh get rid of the far get rid of that barn and we're going to put up new barns. It's under 61A. It's it's a it's API or whatever. It's so it's not going to be developed. It's going to be far.

That's why Peter arresty bought it. John Erlier, he's the foreman uh for Peter and he runs the operation. It's a beef operation. Uh so they're going to change things around to accommodate the beef.

The dairies dairies are Yep. There's more. When I was a kid, there was more cows and less sport than people.

That's gone. So, that's the request to demolish department.

Have Have you um have you explored other possibilities? I mean, re reached out to people who might be interested in No, I I haven't. We have.

We could, but the beams up in the um rafters rather up in the ceiling. They look pretty good. I think what saved that roof is the tin.

They put they covered the shingles up with tin.

Looks like aluminum sheet and that kept it dry.

That has kept it dry.

A lot of power be Yeah. Power post beetles are in there.

All the way to the to the peak.

You're saying structurally not sound now. It's structurally not sound because of the beetle damage and the rot all the way to peak.

Well, I I assume it's on a stone foundation as well. I had exactly the same barn on my property. It was probably built in the 1850s and uh it had concrete poured the same way. It had a milk install on the side.

It had the same 6t ceiling and you have all the stansions for the milking stansions in there too, right? still uh the problem is it's entirely useless as a building. It's just it's really a beautiful artifact and it's a shame to lose history, but there's not much you can do with it. Uh the ground floor, even if you renovated it, has a ceiling that's only 6 ft tall, right? Yeah.

And then it's got you'd have to lift it up, replace all the lumber, pour a new foundation, put it all on that, and it's uh entirely uh kind of economically impractical as a as a thing. It's really an artifact.

It's just it's sad to see it go. It's part of the Westport history. It's what made me fall in love with the area. And my place was a dairy farm. Right.

Where's your place?

Uh it's on Cornell Road. you know, the old um uh Clifford Pierce was a dairy farmer. And I've got the Santoses were on there for a very long time.

And uh and I've got uh who have I got on there now? Um gosh, the guy that took over the Santos farm on Main Road.

Yeah.

Yeah. He's uh Andrew.

Yeah. Andrew's got his he's got his cows on my land now.

Yeah.

So that place was an operating dairy farm up until the 70s. fish and was fishry that I think that's the haunted barn if I remember. Right.

It was a It's the same It's the same barn. It's a bank barn, right? It had a manure pit underneath it.

Yes.

And it had side stall on the top and it had a hoft just like this one.

Yeah.

And so that was the What happened to yours, Jack?

Well, the back end of it fell out. The floor fell out just like this because it had concrete and um it was eventually raised. It it it it wasn't really looked after because the people that lived there didn't use it for 30 40 years and uh the rain got in and it was a it's a beautiful thing to behold, but uh there's not much you can do with it. I wanted to turn it into a

studio or something, but you can't insulate it and half it's rotten. So, it's sad. And you know, you could save the wood, but you're taking Beatles on a little vacation somewhere else, right?

Um I just like to say that um we Garrett and I visited the house. We had a site visit which was requested and we weren't able to see much of it um because of the we were not able to get up into the the log.

But now that's the climb up here. It's beautiful.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

But pictures of the law, the according to the inventory, it was built uh in the 1840s. Is that it?

I think the inventory doesn't specifically say anything about the bar.

Okay. So, it's possible. What I'm seeing here is not a very not the earliest construction. We certainly are looking for structures that are built in this 18th century which would be totally different than this now that I see this construction and also the marks on the the timbers and the rafters. It's built it has circular saw marks which means that it's a later probably later than 1840. I

don't know. Well, some of that could be a vertical soaring of a watermill type saw. Um, these are this is a a vertical saw and this is circular. So, it could be a combination of whoever's milling it.

Whatever I'm seeing here is a circular.

Usually, you see with a waterhe saw because it goes up and down and up and down a very consistent mark that is vertical. It's a vertical saw. Whereas here the saw marks are circular which I can't I don't know when that circular saw came in but they were definitely using a waterhe saw at this time especially around here.

Yeah.

So I doubt that it was the original building to the um to the farmstead.

Um, and it's and it's the framing certainly isn't the early framing uh with the the the the way it's structured where you got balloon framing, right?

Right. It's balloon framing rather than there's some post and beam frame, but it's just a combination of balloon framing. So, I I'm wondering uh I mean, you hate to lose something like this because it's very picturesque on the site, but uh if and if it was a much earlier structure, we'd certainly be very very concerned, but I'm less concerned here.

It It's worth what I did with my barn before I demolished it was we measured it so we had it as a record. And that was a thing that Pete Baker would always say on the commission before you knock it down, get a record of it. Maybe you could measure it and uh you know have that be something that we have somewhere in the folder. You know, people want to know what an old barn look

historical society might.

Yeah. Give it to them and have that take some photographs of it. So you have it as an artifact at the historic commission historic society. Uh, and that way you you you've you've kind of kept it. I had uh somebody take some really beautiful pictures on the inside of it and now it's a room that's gone, but it's it was a really beautiful thing right?

I mean, that's what you know, these great farm buildings are all sort of we just love the past, but we that's why people tear these things down because they're inconvenient, right? So, everything has its time.

I'm just curious, there's also a house on site. Is there any plan for the house to be demolished or houses? What do you do when people live there?

Yeah, I don't think someone live there now.

It's a It's a It's a It's a duplex.

I'm sorry.

It's a duplex. It's not a problem, right?

What it is is you have one floor, two floor.

Is someone living there now?

No. Is there any intention to have someone Is that old too or is that a new building? Yeah, I mean it's, you know, a lot of stuff gets demolished around here and it's just we have some good examples of some of the good things that are here. We can't keep everything, but my recommendation is to, you know, take a few more pictures of the outside and have see if you can measure it for us.

Yeah. Or may maybe um I mean there are there are consultants who will do this, historical consultants who would come in and measure it, take pictures, document it.

Document it.

Do you think they'd be willing to do that and have someone come in and actually document it? Document.

I have to talk to Jenny from the historical.

Yeah, Jenny could be a good That's a great idea. That's a great idea because it can there's many ways of documenting this from counting every single Right. These pictures are fine, but it'd be good to get, you know, the measurements so that they can actually make a record.

Jenny would be very helpful.

She is.

And if you have any uh stone posts in the basement or the cellar and I saw some pictures there, were those concrete posts that were put in?

I think they were added.

Yeah, they were added after. Yeah.

Yeah. I had I had a few of those uh underneath mine and I used them as gate posts. So, yeah. And there's beautiful stone. And the stone foundation too is also really good material.

You should be able to sell that to Dartmouth Stone or or me. Yeah.

Yeah. Mr. Bronco might take it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's great to have that stuff cuz it's Do you Do you have an idea what kind of barn you're going to build?

Uh, at this point there is no plan till we get everything cleaned up and stop working. So you could you you could use the plans that you're going to do for this building and make it sort of like that. So it's got the same shaped roof, same sidewall, shingle it, and that's what I was going to do with mine.

And I was going to have it be, you know, however framed with some steel on the inside, but the outside of it was going to look like an old building.

So, you know, I know people want to put just, you know, metal siding on and a tin roof and and that's it because everything have a nod to the Well, even if it was the same shape, you know, you you were sort of doing something which is I think kind of generous to the community in a will in a way. Just a thought.

Is is the building safe?

Not for not for cows.

So familiar demolished that that new part of the barn which was supporting um and and I noticed there were a few supports that were put in there.

Uh weren't there a few?

Yeah, that was for we had a couple cattle in there two years ago. So we might have put that there to put gates on or something that still there. 2x4s.

Yeah. tip of it and restructuring the barn.

No, there's a like there's a hole cut out of the back of the barn.

Oh. Oh.

Where join where it joined the other barn right?

With the other barn tied in. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm just wondering about the structural integrity of that if someone were to go in and measure it.

Oh, well that Yeah, that's a good point. Well, that people are going to be sort of aware of that, I would think.

So, what's what's your time frame for for wanting to demolish this?

He wants to do it ASAP. I mean, couple months ago, right?

Yeah.

He's trying to get the groundwork set up, change the driveway around so that they can figure out what they're going to do with a new barn. That's all.

Yeah.

But, I mean, whatever whatever whatever you want to do, it's fine.

Well, I [clears throat] mean, I I guess one thing we could do is we could um we could we we could approve demolition on the condition that you first have it measured measured and Yeah.

documented.

Yeah. And documented.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And uh and then the and then the timetable would be somewhat up to you, right? I mean, yeah.

If you could get that done quickly, then that's fair.

Okay.

So moved.

That's good.

You want to make a motion?

Katrina just So moved.

Okay.

Okay. So So let me just state the motion. So um demolition is approved on the condition that you first obtain uh a professional documentation right of the structure.

Yeah.

Including photographs and measurements.

We'll submit that to the commission and then you'll have it on record and then you can just let us know. Yes, it's a go. Will you sign off with the building with the building? Yeah.

Okay. So, you moved and Katrina second.

No, no, I Katrina moved. I just re I restated. So moved.

Okay. Uh and Deborah is seconded.

I second.

Um let's do a roll call vote.

Well, you did say something that I just wanted everyone to hear that some photographs would be a part of the documentation.

Yes.

Yes.

Mark Thompson. I Mooney. I'm sorry.

Katrina Stroy. That's okay.

Mooney. Here I William Kendall. I Timothy Bryan I.

Okay. Now those photograph the documentation that would stay permanently with historical.

Yes. Well, we'll provide the demolition um documentation to the building department so they know that you have the permission subject to this condition.

Well, what I'm saying is when you get that we do Yes.

the historical uh committee will keep it.

Yes.

It'll it'll stay with us and we'll also give a copy to the historical society.

Yeah, we do. That's what I'm saying. And and just to clarify, I think we'll issue the demolition permit after we have the report.

Oh, you want to wait to issue the permit?

We've approved Yeah, we I mean we've approved what we just approved.

Yeah, we agree with that.

Now, I I have one small thing to add. I had two thoughts. One is that you could uh put an ad in shorelines and say, you know, barn free barnwood or barnwood for sale. or there's this fellow um Nathaniel Allen who is a timber framer and um he might be interested in the wood so I could link you together with him um his father was a great friend of the community and a photographer I know

you know you know Natal went to school with my son oh yeah so David Allen's son right that's right yeah yeah so a good man you were Yeah.

Good.

Good.

Okay.

Okay.

We're set.

Apologies again for the waiting.

Nice job. Thank you.

Waiting. Hope it was interesting.

Thank you, Lyn. You got to get up in 2 hours.

I know. He doesn't have much alarm tonight.

Okay. Last item.

Applications for certificate of applicability. 1904 main road John.

Wooden gate and stone.

Yeah, this didn't get sent around.

It did not get sent around and uh we could review it and I just issue it if you are satisfied with the design.

Yeah. So, wooden gate a stone wall.

Yeah.

And and this is a wow this is a gray area because we don't have jurisdiction over holes and fences.

is a gate integral part of the fence.

But in this case, I don't think we need to decide that because um well, they've applied for their CNA. So, uh well, I think this uh sort of metal cap on the top is not particularly attractive. And that's sort of an additional post because they've decided not to use the pin tools that are in the gate. So, they've added that. I mean, what can you do? The fact they're putting back a wooden gate is actually

kind of great. Mine have rotted out again and uh they're just impossible. So, I'm like, at least they're putting it back something in kind.

So, it doesn't look they have that.

This is somebody else's.

Oh, somebody else's I see.

Yeah. Stones, these columns usually have a pintle.

Yeah, they have a little connection.

It's it's hard to ask people to do that because then you have to get a blacksmith and Tony Milum's not really making stuff. They want to put an asymmetrical gate to close the gap.

Right.

You know, Sheree and Dick their house.

Yeah.

They have a gap in their stone wall.

They want to put that gate.

It's right on the road next to the church.

Huh.

I think it's it's an attractive element.

It's got some modern elements to it that have begin to creep in over time because of practicality.

Um Oh, this is I think this is a mockup.

That's their house.

It's not Oh, it's a mockup.

It's a mockup. That's their house. So, this is where they want to put it.

Yeah, that's where they want to put it.

That's not actually the same design as what they show on the plan. You see the extra little vertical piece next to the an extra post is an extra post. I see.

It's not quite the same as what they proposed.

Do you want us to mention that to them so we don't I mean that's what they showed in our drawing versus the what the caps or the No, they they have an extra post.

Whereas Well, the reason they have it is because they don't want to put a the the actual stone post if they're not just stone posts and it was just a barway. The likelihood is it might have some metal pintles on it as Garrett was saying, but you know that's a lot to ask people to do.

Yeah. So, this design is acceptable to metal caps.

I would say so, but you know, what do you suggest instead of the metal caps?

Well, I would uh put wood penetrating uh uh boat epoxy on the wood before you prime it and that'll protect it and leave it Yeah. Yeah, just flat or or or you could shape shape the top, right?

But not have a capital.

Yeah, that that just looks that just looks like cheap aluminum sort of thing. It's it's almost it trivializes the gate as an as a a kind of a too decorative decorative thing instead of we copied something that was down at the point and we're using it.

Okay.

Yeah, I I can communicate that to him. I mean, he seems very very interested in in being historically accurate?

Well, if he is, then he can look at uh 1603 main road. It's got some beautiful gates. They're made with wood pegs.

1663 16003.

Um either the main gates to the property and there's one to the south of it. Uh and then my house has uh uh 212 Cornell Road. They're welcome to inspect that how it's made. 21 212 Cornell Road.

I mean, I designed them based on something I saw in uh Little Compton in their historic society. So, it had like a nice rounded top on it. So, that could be more attractive in terms of that. Or if you I don't know if I can mark that up and send it to them, but uh if you send me the drawing, I'm happy to free. There you go.

Happy to make a suggestion.

Um, want a pen?

I guess so. Yeah, I'm on the spot now.

Why not?

Hey, you made Tim draw.

You have hours to go. You made Tim draw a garage door. The least you could do.

I did. Well, what do I want to do? I think you want to do the cap.

Yeah. Well, you want to do something sort of like you call Roy and talk to him there?

Yeah.

Uh, and then you could do something like this. Um, where the the gate, you know, you could do, it's not clear to me how these close, but you could you could round the tops of these gates as well just to make them sort of interesting.

And then this post. So

you could do something like this.

You could do something like that.

Interesting.

Okay.

Yeah. Or maybe that's the [clears throat] the the square post.

Mhm. I'll be as soon as I can. Okay.

Yeah. Just a thought.

Um, so, uh, we might as well vote, um, on the CNA. CNA, let's vote.

Yeah.

You want to do a conditional on this redesign?

Uh, make a suggestion.

Suggestion. Yeah.

I mean, they can do whatever he wants, but, you know, have a look at a couple more gates. It Yeah. So, I think maybe we could make a strong suggestion because it's right on Main Road.

It is very visible.

It's really visible. And I know we don't have the jurisdiction so I guess it can sort of be strong but well there are some nice gates that are existent right on the churchyard and main road right there near the church.

Look at that CNA. Why don't you talk to him and I mean he seems very in between meetings.

He wrote he wrote a letter and he's very interested in the vote. Why don't you talk to him and then we can do I think we should you want to vote but we don't have the reaction to him.

Let let me just Katrina feels strongly about it. I kind of now I'm sorry to buy a pen. You know, how are these how are these things put together right?

So, you know, you're going to you're going to want like bolts on these things. How are they you could go and see the 1603 main road, right?

Mhm.

I mean, I'll make a motion to approve it subject to changing those caps. How's that?

Yeah.

I don't second.

I mean, I don't want to just approve it without taking Tim's.

Yeah. I mean, the other thing I could do is or we could do is um uh I could talk to him and I could That's kind of what I said. Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you.

I'm listening.

I I Sorry. I I just, you know, I I spent so much money on replicating gates and things and now I've got a remake and two of them because they've all rotted apart. Anybody who wants to put back any kind of gate that resembles something at the point is a rock star as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, that's great. Thanks.

It's not as long as it's not made out of hear from Russell Baker. So contact him and see what he wants to do about you.

Did he pay $50?

I don't know what he paid us $50 for this.

Yeah. And I'm going to want to talk to I'm going to look in the rules to see if we have to have him pay again because notice it.

Okay. Um I think I think that's my agenda, but I think that's it.

Did we need to adjourn and I don't know if we can or not. Do we adjourn to executive session to approve the executive session or that's done at a different time? Yeah, we'll do that a different time because I did not put it on the agenda.

Okay.

So, all right.

I'll make a motion to adjurnn.

I'll second that.

All in favor?

I oppose.

I sure that we are adjourned.